Turn bankrupt gas stations into supercharger locations

[ajdelange]

They will do that if the best property available happens to be a gas station and sometimes it is. Tesla is, for example, planning one in downtown Fairfax VA which happens to be at an old gas station but there is nothing particular about a gas station that make it more or less desirable than any other piece of property as suitably located. To understand where Tesla is likely to put SCs look at the Tesla SC chart which shows both current and planned locations. But some of those planned stations have been "opening later this year" for three years. And some are not shown (for example Vienna VA where a good part of the electrical work has been done doesn't appear). Also look on PlugShare for locations of Tesla and competitors charging stations are located. Dig in a little and look at the kinds of businesses located near the station and at the photographs people have posted so you will get a feel for the typical environment.

One thing about Tesla is that on the road they are pretty good about being "right there at the exit" whatever kind of property they are located on. They seem to do better at this aspect of it than, for example, EA and this will continue to give Tesla a marketing advantage. In town their chargers tend to be located in malls often in their parking garages.

 

[ajdelange]

and those "remediated" gas stations on prime real estate are PRIME real estate. So do some math and get back to me.... How much more will they charge to "fill-up" because they are "prime" real estate?

Neither of the two within a half mile of my house charge particularly more. Yes, you can get it cheaper at Costco but not so much so as to make it worth driving out there.

Gas stations that are remediated will become something more valuable than a super charger site because no one will pay the premium to charge their batteries when they can do it less expensively at McDonald's and eat too.

So you think the McDonalds down the street from where the supercharger is going in in Vienna sits on real estate that is less prime than where WaWa is building and that Tesla charges different rates at different stations (they do, of course, regionally but not, AFAIK within an area)? I wonder where you get these ideas.

Tourists will charge their batteries at the hotels.

No they won't. Why would they do that? Do you actually have any experience operating a BEV? I guess I need to add that those staying at the Fogo Island Inn will charge there.

I am strongly stating a much more logical and inclusive understanding of how supercharging will evolve.

Roger on the strongly, negative on the logical.

And it does NOT involve gas station conversions.

Of course it does where that is the best solution from Tesla's point of view but it is not Tesla's plan to go find gas stations to convert. If a property that is suitable for a super charger becomes available they will take it. I've explained this to you several times before and don't know why you can't grasp this simple fact. Have you ever been to a Super Charger? I've been to a couple that are located where gas stations used to be (and still are).

 

[ajdelange]

But with the millions of tourists who drive into the D.C. area, it still seems, more superchargers are needed. (Seeming my Tesla last year, a tourist in a Tesla bemoaned his plight, asking which one would be easiest to access from his location.) Tough balance. I concur with your thoughts to not make them so convenient that the locals overwhelm them.

I have never approached D.C. as a tourist (well not since being brought here as a child anyway) but it seems to me that the area is pretty well supplied with superchargers (there are 18 within a 20 mile radium) and there are more coming. I guess I would approach DC the way I would any city i.e. charge up at a SC on the way in in order to have a full tank for the purpose of running around town and then charge up for my trip on the way home at one of these same chargers on the way out. Any day trips to places like Manassas, Mt. Vernon, Luray, Annapolis etc. bring you within convenient range of a superecharger or two.

 

[lukefrisbee]

Here is how charging would work at hotels.
First, the chargers maybe would not be Superchargers This will stop local traffic from overwhelming them, IF that is really an issue. But the model could be set-up to have super chargers within the parking lot only accessible to hotel guests registered vehicles. Or the Superchargers could need an access code provided upon check-in.
I would "argue" with some folks on here but it seems that the administrator allows some members to directly attack some members instead of the issue, so I will just continue to discuss the demerits of gas stations becoming supercharging facilities in a logical non-confrontational fashion.
A vast number of retail businesses have more parking than they need 95% of the time. That "real estate" is virtually wasted and is "free." And would attract more customers if it were turned into a fuel station. OR I guess, some company could devise a plan to buy gas stations that sit on "prime" commercial sites for large sums of money. And then put in the exact same type of superchargers, but increase the price in an attempt to recover the large sum of money that was needed to buy the property. And also make a profit that is large enough to support the business because "supercharging" would be the main business. Or McD's can put in some superchargers and just pay enough to cover the cost of putting them in, and perhaps make a small profit because McD's main business is fast food.
Converted Gas Station Superchargers would:

Be much less desirable to use as the consumer would have to specifically stop and waste time just to charge their car, Where as having smaller groups of chargers located at businesses where people were going anyway would be much more convenient. EXAMPLE: You plug in, you go eat, you unplug,. and you are on your way.

Have inflated higher costs because "prime" real estate would be purchased by a business which has at its center to make a worthwhile profit off of reselling electricity. (Whereas retail businesses would put superchargers in to increase their customer traffic. And having a higher price for the electricity would negate that strategy. )

In closing...
Using a gas station was never convenient. It was a necessary evil because of the nature of the fuel. And the public accepted it. Gas stations are very often places most of us never want to be concerning the issue of the type of people that hang around them. "Hey man, you wouldn't believe what happened to me...my wife left, my dog died, my girlfriend is having a litter of puppies, and I need to get to court, can you give me a hand.? Well if you won't, do you want to buy some drugs?"
With electricity being available "everywhere" fuel charging stations can be constructed everywhere. They will be less trafficked areas and therefore less lucrative for hustlers and drug dealers. And by choosing which of the many available superchargers one wishes to use less desirable areas can be avoided.
I can plainly see why supercharging stations built at old gas stations will become places where scammers, hustlers, and drug dealers would continue to populate. due to the high turn over of potential marks, and the amount of time the hustlers can work their con.
When travelling I will just refuel at the Red Robin. Not have to stop for just refueling, Not be around the subgroup that buys their beer and cigs on a daily basis. Pay a lower rate than at a re-cycled gas station. Not be bothered by a hustler. And not waste time waiting for the battery to charge.
Here again. I am not arguing. I just see it different than those that seem to believe old gas stations will work as "new fueling stations."

 

[ajdelange]

You don't seem to be aware that there are super chargers out there (some at old gas stations) and some not. And there are destination chargers at hotels and other businesses and I even found one hotel that has a 50 kW DC charger. So my suggestion to you would be, if you want to understrand how charging works, to investigate what is actually out there rather than assuming things will change to agree with your ideas.

 

[lukefrisbee]

Man, I hope they convert old gas stations to Supercharger stations. They are so conveniently located near main roads. The closest supercharger to me is hidden behind some retail shop and is pretty far off the main highway. It'd be so much better to have a Supercharger right there at the exit.

Small groups of superchargers will be EVERYWHERE. it won't be just one being out of the way.
All retail centers can drop in 5 chargers. malls will have larger numbers. But I can see Fast food places having enough to take care of quite a bit of the need. Stand alone Super charger filling stations would have enormous initial costs and high continued overhead. And the whole business model would be the make as much money off of re-selling electricity.
If the current gas station model does continue once electric vehicles dominate the roads civilization will have once again failed because greed will drive the price of fuel. An additional layer of capitalism will be baked in to the price of fuel that is totally unneeded. Big oil fleeces its consumers, there is no logic but greed to the price that gasoline is set at.
You should hope that the financial model of gas stations is defeated when the monopoly of the oil industry to power the world is removed.

 

[ajdelange]

Let me remind every one that Tesla operates the SC network at a loss. It's a marketing tool!

And let me remind everyone (again) that the sale of petrol is becoming a marketing tool for the convenience store operator.

No, Super Chargers won't be everywhere. The Tesla network is maturing to the point that travel is pretty easy now with the exception of a few places that need filling in. When those are filled in more locations won't be needed but rather more stalls per location. If Tesla's penetration is now 2% it is clear that when it is 20% there will be a need for 10 times more stalls. It seems that one cannot operate a DC fast charger at a profit without charging prices that make electric more expensive than petrol (EA). As electricity, even at retail, is pretty inexpensive it is becoming clear that infrastructure, demand charges, capital expenses and rent or land purchase must be the killers. Obviously installing more terminals at an existing location is cheaper than adding those extra stalls at new location.

People that live in urban areas that cannot charge at home are underserved by the SC network. Thus, as BEVs become more prevalent what we will be seeing is more readily available home charging where the gear is inexpensive and demand charges, while perhaps still levied, are easily circumvented. And again looking at present trends indicate that this is the probably direction.

 

[TyPope]

I think that gas stations could change from a pump, buy, and go model to more of a cafe style thing. Current gas stations are large enough to have a nice lobby where you can hang out while your car charges and maybe have some coffee and a donut... Gas stations don't make money on gas any more than they would if they convert. They are definitely making money on the purchases from inside their stations. Clean up, sell pizza by the slice, coffee, donuts, candy, chips, and sodas and they can make it work... Maybe... I suppose it would depend on how many customers they'd see daily. I would anticipate some of these places servicing more than just Teslas though.

 

[lukefrisbee]

Gasoline is a racket. There is no real market competition. Do any of you really think that gasoline prices aren't controlled by the major players?
I tried at one time to believe that the gasoline market wasn't rigged. But then you see the barrel price go up 20% and then the gas pump price goes up 40% overnight. The fuel you are buying has already been purchased at a much lower price months before. The Gasoline industry quickly increases the price because consumers as a whole are now aware that "gas is going to be more expensive." The Gasoline industry acts like a forced options market where the Gasoline industry gets to always win. And when the price per barrel comes down the price at the pump takes months to adjust..not with one gas station, but all of them.
When Electricity becomes the energy of the masses there will be no way to control it like the monopoly game Big oil has played.

 

[TyPope]

Gasoline is a racket. There is no real market competition. Do any of you really think that gasoline prices aren't controlled by the major players?
I tried at one time to believe that the gasoline market wasn't rigged. But then you see the barrel price go up 20% and then the gas pump price goes up 40% overnight. The fuel you are buying has already been purchased at a much lower price months before. The Gasoline industry quickly increases the price because consumers as a whole are now aware that "gas is going to be more expensive." The Gasoline industry acts like a forced options market where the Gasoline industry gets to always win. And when the price per barrel comes down the price at the pump takes months to adjust..not with one gas station, but all of them.
When Electricity becomes the energy of the masses there will be no way to control it like the monopoly game Big oil has played.

You could be correct, sir.

 

[lukefrisbee]

Oh, and my point was that someone wrote that the gas stations get most of their profit from the non-gas sales. Now think about it....Gas stations are part of a fixed price community concerning gasoline...So does anyone believe that the profits from the aspect of their business where they can fix the prices are going to be less than those they have less control over?
Nope, Gas Stations stay open if they sell gasoline, not coffee. beer. Cigs.

 

[TyPope]

Oh, and my point was that someone wrote that the gas stations get most of their profit from the non-gas sales. Now think about it....Gas stations are part of a fixed price community concerning gasoline...So does anyone believe that the profits from the aspect of their business where they can fix the prices are going to be less than those they have less control over?
Nope, Gas Stations stay open if they sell gasoline, not coffee. beer. Cigs.

Easy to say. I wonder if any Station owners are in the forum. I know that for a while, there were gas stations in Atlanta that were basically giving gas away. I remember it being VERY cheap in the 80s/90s and those gas stations were still in business. I remember paying 4 times what a gallon of gas cost for a friggin snicker's bar.

 

[ajdelange]

Ahh but don't cha know the electric industry is just as corrupt! Many of the utilities are investor owned (that is, by capitalists) and hapily poison our ground water with radioactive poisons! The rest use coal wherever they can, oppose solar and the EM radiation from their transmission lines gives cancer to our children!