Tesla removed from the S&P 500 ESG index

[JBee]

Becoming aware of the injustices that "woke" refers to definitely has racial connotations here in the USA.

As a non-American, you may be unaware that the phrase "get woke", in the viral rant about racial injustice from which the political definition of "woke" is derived, comes out of AAVE. As such, using this less-common grammatical formation of "awakened" or "woken up" carries a lot of cultural information.

Another bit of cultural information you may lack is that liberals in America mostly stopped using the term "woke" years ago. We/they primarily describe the injustices without using shortcuts. The term "woke" has mostly kept in alive by right-wing pundits who are fully aware of the term's history and connotations and who use those aspects of the word to make their point.

If you don't believe me, search for the quote in your definition. It ought to being up the original viral rant.

So are you now trying to agree with rlhamil now with his statement "The whole concept of "woke" is appalling," ?

And although I can appreciate your effort to update me on the state of US affairs, I'm well aware of it.

Regardless, it still does not justify the forum behaviour.

 

[Luke42]

So are you now trying to agree with rlhamil now with his statement "The whole concept of "woke" is appalling," ?

What's appalling about being aware of (racial) injustice?!?

I'm appalled by the actual injustices, of course, as all people should be.

However, most of the people complaining about "wokeness" are complaining about the recognition of (racial) injustice when it happens. This makes it harder to fix the actual injustices.

The United States has made a habit of treating some Americans poorly, and we need to knock it off and live up to those words in the Declaration of Independence about everyone being created equal.

 

[CostcoSamples]

Elon is right, wokeism is a mind virus. It's a form of marxism in the sense that it seeks to tear down existing value structures to make way for a new "equitable" (authoritarian) system. More specifically, it includes the ideologies of intersectionality and collectivism. Virtue signaling is a key characteristic of the infected. The virus is spread by big tech and corporate media. Those who espouse wokeism do not appear capable of thinking for themselves, hence the NPC meme.

There are many on this forum who's posts have been extremely insightful on a wide variety of topics, only to revert to pre-programmed talking points when it comes to this stuff. That's why Elon calls it a mind virus. It turns you into an NPC.

 

[Cybertruckee]

Marxist? The/any stock market? That is hilarious

The SJWs are mostly marxist. Wall Street isn't, but the games played by either are frequently misleading and influenced by considerations other than what they acknowledge (at least what they say to the general public, not necessarily what they say to one another).

edit: the current Administration has a big hate for anything non-union; and a lot of corporate players have gone way over to the left - which doesn't make much sense, since if they lean obviously either way, they're offending about half their customers. So their real reasons may have little enough to do with what they say.

Someone is again confused with economics and politics.

Angry with the unions when it's the insatiable greed of big banks and big business that put the country's economy into tailspin.

Have you heard of the unions causing us a $9trillion deficit because of tax cuts?

 

[JBee]

What's appalling about being aware of (racial) injustice?!?

I'm appalled by the actual injustices, of course, as all people should be.

However, most of the people complaining about "wokeness" are complaining about the recognition of (racial) injustice when it happens. This makes it harder to fix the actual injustices.

The United States has made a habit of treating some Americans poorly, and we need to knock it off and live up to those words in the Declaration of Independence about everyone being created equal.

I have a problem with all injustice, as should all. But you said:

We/they primarily describe the injustices without using shortcuts. The term "woke" has mostly kept in alive by right-wing pundits who are fully aware of the term's history and connotations and who use those aspects of the word to make their point.

Thats sounds to me like you don't 100% agree with the usage of woke either, ie agree with rlhamil that the concept is faulty or misused?

Injustice is injustice. Being aware is only the first step, if its not followed by an explicit act to adress the injustice the awareness alone is pointless. There needs to be an appropriate output to compensate for the input. Hence "wokeness" is a crazy concept that has no purpose in of itself. Aka vitue signalling etc. Lets explore.

Definition of injustice:

1 : absence of justice : violation of right or of the rights of another : unfairness. 2 : an unjust act : wrong.

So when someone does an "injustice" and nobody says something to correct it, or doesn't see that their own bias is clouding their own judgement, and shoehorns another persons perspective, "fact" or opinion, or even worse distorts what was said by the other to fit that same bias or bigotry, for promoting ones own ideology, without regard for others, then how is that in any way "woke" let alone a "justified" act?

Do as you preach, or don't preach. This is otherwise labelled as "hypocrisy". It starts with the small things like forum posts.

 

[Luke42]

I have a problem with all injustice, as should all. But you said:




Thats sounds to me like you don't 100% agree with the usage of woke either, ie agree with rlhamil that the concept is faulty or misused?

Injustice is injustice. Being aware is only the first step, if its not followed by an explicit act to adress the injustice the awareness alone is pointless. There needs to be an appropriate output to compensate for the input. Hence "wokeness" is a crazy concept that has no purpose in of itself. Aka vitue signalling etc. Lets explore.

Definition of injustice:

1 : absence of justice : violation of right or of the rights of another : unfairness. 2 : an unjust act : wrong.

So when someone does an "injustice" and nobody says something to correct it, or doesn't see that their own bias is clouding their own judgement, and shoehorns another persons perspective, "fact" or opinion, or even worse distorts what was said by the other to fit that same bias or bigotry, for promoting ones own ideology, without regard for others, then how is that in any way "woke" let alone a "justified" act?

Do as you preach, or don't preach. This is otherwise labelled as "hypocrisy". It starts with the small things like forum posts.

American right-wing pundits have kept the term alive by use the terms "woke" and "wokism" to whine about anti-racism efforts, and efforts to correct injustices (which are often racial in nature) in American society.

I'll spell it out for you:

1. Woke" means aware of (racial) injustice problems in the USA. That's what it has always meant (as a political term) and what it continues to mean today.
2. Some people use "woke" as a pejorative for people who care about social/racial justice issues in the United States of America.
3. The people who use "woke" as an insult are people who dislike the awareness of injustices in American society.

Complaining about "wokism" is deeply cringe.

 

[JBee]

American right-wing pundits have kept the term alive by use the terms "woke" and "wokism" to whine about anti-racism efforts, and efforts to correct injustices (which are often racial in nature) in American society.

I'll spell it out for you:

1. Woke" means aware of (racial) injustice problems in the USA. That's what it has always meant (as a political term) and what it continues to mean today.
2. Some people use "woke" as a pejorative for people who care about social/racial justice issues in the United States of America.
3. The people who use "woke" as an insult are people who dislike the awareness of injustices in American society.

Complaining about "wokism" is deeply cringe.

Wow so no response to the content of my post on your quest to explain something I already know of, being a perspective that I don't agree with? Are you trying to prove what I am saying intentionally?

Do I need to rephrase what I said about the concept or will that still result in the same response?

Let me try simply: knowing something doesn't help if you don't do anything about it.

 

[Luke42]

Wow so no response to the content of my post on your quest to explain something I already know about that perspective, and that I don'tagree with? Are you trying to prove what I am saying intentionally?

Do I need to rephrase what I said about the concept or will that still result in the same response?

Let me try simply: knowing something doesn't help if you don't do anything about it.

You'll have to be less abstract and theoretical.

What exactly are you talking about? What actual issues?

You'll need to be specific, and you'll need to say the quiet part out loud.

The term "woke" came in to common use during concerns about disproportionate police violence against Black Americans. This is clearly an injustice that should be fixed, but so many people want to pretend it's not a problem for reasons they won't say out loud.

(It is worth mentioning that fixing police violence against Black Americans will likely make life better for all Americans - it's just that Black Americans suffer disproportionately.)

 

[JBee]

You'll have to be less abstract and theoretical.

What exactly are you talking about? What actual issues?

You'll need to be specific, and you'll need to say the quiet part out loud.

The term "woke" came in to common use during concerns about disproportionate police violence against Black Americans.

Ok sure let me try again a bit louder.

The conversation about "woke" started with the statement it was "an appalling concept".

I tried to explain this was true, in that specificly "knowing" or being "aware" about an injustice is not enough in itself, and it needs an "action" to be in any way meaningful.

That means we who observe "injustice" have a direct "response-ability" to stop such behaviour from continuing, by acting on that observation of injustice.

In this case your own bias seems to of let you ignore what I was actually saying, which is a form of prejudice. Being a form of premature justice, or making a judgement without knowledge, based on faulty information.

Simple example:
I called out the quote manipulation.
You tried to justify it by lecturing me on woke, and that I was missing US connotations.

I rebutted that by saying; knowing is only the first step to making progress, we need to act on that knowledge otherwise that knowledge will go to waste.

Lets visualise that:
You are driving down the highway and a young child chases a ball accross the street in front of you. You obviously can see and therefore "know" the ball and the child are in the wrong place and are in immediate danger. That "awareness" should result in you responding appropriately in kind. So you brake, put the car hazards on and ensure the child is safely returned to his home, hopefully with a few encouaging words to their parents on how they might improve their custodianship.

Now just being aware did not automatically bring about the right behaviour here. You could of just swerved and sworn under your breath "that was close" and carried on your merry way thinking someone else will fix it, or he will be ok, or its too dangerous to get out on the highway, or even worse: thats not my problem to do something about.

For there to be "social justice" it doesn't require better rules, better courts, better enforcement or even better "education" or knowledge as such. Just better people that care for others at least as much as themselves, if not a little bit more, and act accordingly.

 

[Crissa]

Elon is right, [being aware of discrimination] is a mind virus.

Let's edit this and try to figure out what you meant.

It's a form of [random negative term] in the sense that it seeks to tear down existing value structures to make way for a new "equitable" ([negative word]) system. More specifically, it includes the ideologies of [realizing that discrimination can happen in more than one way at once] and [negative word for community spirit]. [Doing nice things] is a key characteristic of the infected. The virus is spread by [word of mouth] and [companies who want to sell to them]. Those who espouse [being aware of discrimination] do not appear capable of thinking for themselves, hence the [treating them as disposable].

Probably you should consider what it is you're saying.

Are you really saying you should have no community spirit? And not be polite and respectful to your neighbors? And being respectful is equal to being characters that are stomped, shot, and with no ability to choose their own decisions?

That's not free thinking, that's narcissism, isn't it?

-Crissa

 

[JBee]

Let's edit this and try to figure out what you meant.


Probably you should consider what it is you're saying.

Are you really saying you should have no community spirit and be polite and respectful to your neighbors? And being respectful is equal to being characters that are stomped, shot, and with no ability to choose their own decisions?

That's not free thinking, that's narcissism.

-Crissa

Do you know what respect is?

Respect:
noun
1.
a feeling of deep admiration for someone or something elicited by their abilities, qualities, or achievements.
"the director had a lot of respect for Douglas as an actor"


2.
due regard for the feelings, wishes, or rights of others.
"young people's lack of respect fortheir parents"

It would seem you have little for yourself let alone someone else, or the ideas they write and express. From time to time you should consider that your own perception is fallible and use more external ques to correct inappropriate behaviour.

 

[Luke42]

Ok sure let me try again a bit louder.

The conversation about "woke" started with the statement it was "an appalling concept".

Please explain how and why being aware of (racial) injustice is an appalling concept.

 

[JBee]

Please explain how and why being aware of (racial) injustice is an appalling concept.

That's what I've been trying to do?

Let me ask you this regarding knowledge: is it better to act on the little you know or to know lots and not act at all on it?

 

[Luke42]

That's what I've been trying to do?

Let me ask you this regarding knowledge: is it better to act on the little you know or to know lots and not act at all on it?

Again, you're going to have to explain what you're really getting at.

Understanding the injustices faced by American society makes you "woke" by default. And, yet, so many people act like that's a bad thing.

I'm an MBA, and one of the things they taught us in B-school was to avoid both making decisions in ignorance and to avoid analysis paralysis. Its not rocket science, but it does take some practice and judgement. My judgement is that we as a society are not suffering from analysis-paralysis. However, we so have an epidemic of people who are insisting on remaining ignorant in the name of "fighting wokeness". I find it personally embarrassing when my fellow Americans do this.

We, as a nation, should be better than this.

Knowledge is good. If ignorance and analysis paralysis are both hazards. If people would stop putting so much effort into staying ignorant, we could fix some long-standing problems here in the USA.

 

[CostcoSamples]

Let's edit this and try to figure out what you meant.


Probably you should consider what it is you're saying.

Are you really saying you should have no community spirit? And not be polite and respectful to your neighbors? And being respectful is equal to being characters that are stomped, shot, and with no ability to choose their own decisions?

That's not free thinking, that's narcissism, isn't it?

-Crissa

Changing my words is very convenient for you. I think they call that a strawman... Anyway, you might find it helpful to read up on marxism, it seems you might not know what it is.

But to address your question, yes I do like community spirit. And I like polite and respectful conduct, yes. but I don't know what you mean about characters being stomped, shot, and no decision power?

Anyway, getting back to the evils of ESG scores... Perhaps it started as an honest attempt to steer financial markets but as with many levers of power nowadays, I believe it has been overtaken by the malicious. To paraphrase Elon, the appearance of doing good is not what matters (ESG score is in that category, IMO). Actually doing good can be really hard.