DAily Caller: Are Electric Vehicles A Scam?

[FutureBoy]

Are Electric Vehicles A Scam?

Mandel Ngan/AFP via Getty Images

THOMAS CATENACCI
ENERGY & ENVIRONMENT REPORTER
December 23, 20218:30 PM ET

• Electric vehicles (EV) continue to represent a greater share of new car purchases, but their cost, range and charge rate may hinder many consumers from making the transition.
• “One reason to be suspicious of electric cars overall, is that we haven’t solved any of the real problems that we’ve always thought they had,” said Michael Shellenberger, a climate expert who founded the group Environmental Progress.
• A 2020 AAA poll determined that nearly 80% of households with an EV also own a traditional vehicle, suggesting that just a sliver of Americans are making a complete transition.

Electric vehicles (EV) continue to represent a greater share of new car purchases, but their cost, range and charge rate may hinder many consumers from making the transition.

While EV’s have grown in popularity over the last decade, gas-powered vehicles still account for the vast majority of cars on the road and new car sales, according to Pew Research survey published in June. In addition, a 2020 AAA poll determined that nearly 80% of households with an EV also own a traditional vehicle, suggesting that just a sliver of Americans are making a complete transition.

“One reason to be suspicious of electric cars overall, is that we haven’t solved any of the real problems that we’ve always thought they had,” said Michael Shellenberger, a climate expert who founded the group Environmental Progress.

“Much more should be done, in terms of climate change, to decarbonize the electric production sector, moving from coal to natural gas and uranium,” Shellenberger told the DCNF. “Transportation would not be where I would focus. But obviously there’s a lot of money to be made and a lot of interests that then turn around and fund the members who vote for this.” (RELATED: Elon Musk Says Democrats Should Tank Entire Build Back Better Bill)

The AAA research showed that most consumers are worried about the low availability of fast charging stations nationwide and about the distance an EV can travel before needing a charge. Gregg Brannon, AAA director of automotive engineering and industry relations, said EV adoption is happening at a slow rate and that “range anxiety” is a major reason.

But the U.S. and many other Western governments have made ambitious pledges to transition to EV’s as part of their efforts to combat climate change, even as consumers continue to show reluctance. In the U.S., President Joe Biden has vowed to ensure 50% of private car sales are electric by 2030 and that every addition to the federal governments’ massive vehicle fleet is an EV by 2035.

In 2020, though, EV’s represented just 2% of new vehicle sales in the U.S., according to the International Energy Agency’s annual industry report released in April. That represented a decline in EV share of new sales.

“While they can’t do the job alone, electric vehicles have an indispensable role to play in reaching net-zero emissions worldwide,” IEA Executive Director Fatih Birol said in a statement following the report’s release.

President Joe Biden waves before test driving an electric Hummer in Detroit, Michigan on Nov. 17. (Mandel Ngan/AFP via Getty Images)

‘Subsidy for affluent people’
EV’s have both a shorter range and are often more expensive to fuel than their gas-powered competitors, according to a report from the Anderson Economic Group (AEG) published in October.

“Unlike their reliable gas cars that have 300 or 400 miles of range that can be filled up at a number of gas stations in our country, you have to think about what available chargers you have and plan it out,” Patrick Anderson, the study’s author, previously told the Detroit Free Press. “It’s more than range anxiety, it’s a burden of constantly monitoring the charging status.”

Although the median range for EV’s has increased, it is only about 250 miles per full charge, according to the Department of Energy. Cars powered by gas have a median range of 412 miles by comparison.

Charging an EV is also more expensive than filling up a gas car, costing $12.95 per 100 miles compared to the $8.58 per 100 miles it costs to fuel a comparable vehicle with an internal combustion engine, the AEG report found. The study factored in the cost of electricity, EV registration taxes, cost of home chargers and “deadhead miles” or travel costs for time spent driving to a commercial charging station.

The factors that ultimately make an EV more expensive to fuel than a regular car are factored into the price of gasoline at the pump, the report said. (RELATED: Kamala Harris Thinks The Biggest Obstacle To Buying A $50,000 Electric Car Is Figuring Out How To Charge It)

The typical non-rural EV owner is 20-30 minutes from the closest commercial charging station, which take another 20-30 minutes to fully charge the vehicle, according to AEG. Slower chargers and at-home options may take hours.

“For the infrastructure available as of the mid-2021 in metropolitan areas of the US, we estimate that typical time costs for EV drivers are about five to ten times that of comparable (internal combustion engine) drivers,” the report stated.

The cost of a new EV itself is also much higher than a traditional vehicle. The average dealer price of a new EV is about $51,532 while a new compact car is less than $23,000, according to Kelley Blue Book.

Buckle up! We’re kickstarting an American EV future pic.twitter.com/OvtfbOjyBL
— Secretary Pete Buttigieg (@SecretaryPete) December 14, 2021

The Build Back Better Act included a number of handouts that Democratic lawmakers hoped would incentivize more Americans to make the transition away from gas-powered cars. However, the more than $2 trillion bill was effectively killed Sunday when West Virginia Sen. Joe Manchin announced he wouldn’t vote for it.

The bipartisan infrastructure bill that Biden signed into law on Nov. 15 included the government’s first-ever investment in a nationwide EV charging infrastructure. The program is also intended to promote EV purchases, the Federal Highway Administration said.

Electric vehicle charging stations are currently found mainly in major cities, according to Pew Research. The availability of commercial charging infrastructure corresponds with where most new EV purchases take place.

However, critics have argued that such a provision would only encourage wealthy people to purchase EV’s. (RELATED: Democrats Strike Offshore Drilling Ban After Manchin Opposition: REPORT)

“The public has an interest in the government setting the standard for how those electric refilling stations ought to be,” Shellenberger told the Daily Caller News Foundation. “But I don’t think it’s in the public’s interest to heavily subsidize EV charging infrastructure. That seems to me like a subsidy for affluent people.”

Tesla CEO Elon Musk echoed Shellenberger’s comments during a recent Wall Street Journal event, arguing in favor of a free market system over subsidies.

“Do we need support for gas stations? We don’t,” Musk told the WSJ. “So, there’s no need for support for a charging network.”

“I’m literally saying get rid of all subsidies,” he continued.

 

[Crissa]

Their first guy is a self-funded cranks, not an environmentalist. Handwavey 'there are problems' is a big red flag.

All of these 'facts' are either straight up wrong or misleading at best.

Shellenberger's positions have been called "bad science" and "inaccurate" by environmental scientists and academics.[11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20]

{citations there are lots of them}
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Shellenberger

-Crissa

 

[Dirt Worker]

Who funded the cost per mile studies? And what other studies were used as comparisons? I see some pretty obscure research data like an average charge away from home at 40% and the cost of lost wages while charging are included in operation cost. "Figures lie and liars figure". AEG must be one heck of a research firm.

 

[Crissa]

In 2020, though, EV’s represented just 2% of new vehicle sales in the U.S., according to the International Energy Agency’s annual industry report released in April. That represented a decline in EV share of new sales.

Month to month sales in 2020 of all years? How misleading can you get?

“Unlike their reliable gas cars..."

Biased language much?

And not on this list are scooters and motorcycles with short ranges, which is most of them, because no one makes a compact ICE car with a short range because you don't have a gas station at your house. Nearly all sport bikes and racing carts have exceedingly short ranges for safety.

Comparing fleet ranges like this is completely misleading.

Charging an EV is also more expensive than filling up a gas car, costing $12.95 per 100 miles compared to the $8.58 per 100 miles it costs to fuel a comparable vehicle with an internal combustion engine, the AEG report found. The study factored in the cost of electricity, EV registration taxes, cost of home chargers and “deadhead miles” or travel costs for time spent driving to a commercial charging station.

This is another lie: Rural users don't need commercial charging. They don't pay urban recharging rates. They don't pay for parking. And who would drive 'dead head' to a charging station unless they're also already driving somewhere for a long distance? 60% of trips are less than six miles. Nearly everyone drives less than 30 miles on a typical day. Road trips or exceeding the range of a long-range are rarer events.

“For the infrastructure available as of the mid-2021 in metropolitan areas of the US, we estimate that typical time costs for EV drivers are about five to ten times that of comparable (internal combustion engine) drivers,” the report stated.

This is just straight up lying. First, you don't stand there waiting for your car to charge. Second, all rural places have electricity and parking - they don't need a commercial charger.

The cost of a new EV itself is also much higher than a traditional vehicle. The average dealer price of a new EV is about $51,532 while a new compact car is less than $23,000, according to Kelley Blue Book.

Why would you compare 'all electric cars' (which includes supercars) to 'compact car'? First off, less than 7% of new car sales are compact!

It's just highly disingenuous to compare these numbers, it doesn't even compare the trade-offs between EV and ICE vehicles - namely that you're paying $10k more up front for the low volume and battery pack.

And the cut-in citations were for other dishonest articles. So if a news source prints stuff like this, should you trust their other articles for accuracy?

-Crissa

 

[FutureBoy]

I really have to wonder when people don't see the benefits of owning electric. Then I see this kind of "article" and I think it's no wonder people are so misinformed.

There are so many problematic things in the article.

Electric vehicles (EV) continue to represent a greater share of new car purchases, but their cost, range and charge rate may hinder many consumers from making the transition.

So yes, most EV's at least in the US are either on the expensive end of the market or have technology and support issues. Or both.

On the other hand, I've had friends that were completely happy with their Nissan Leaf. In fact, they tend to brag about their Leaf. While the Leaf isn't for everyone, it seems to work really well for the niche it is in.

While EV’s have grown in popularity over the last decade, gas-powered vehicles still account for the vast majority of cars on the road and new car sales, according to Pew Research survey published in June. In addition, a 2020 AAA poll determined that nearly 80% of households with an EV also own a traditional vehicle, suggesting that just a sliver of Americans are making a complete transition.

We are just starting the transition to EVs and there are not nearly enough of them available yet to be able to make a huge dent in the market. But not for lack of trying. Currently, there are months of backlogged orders for various Tesla vehicles. If Tesla could produce enough to fill 25% of the new car market, I'm sure they would still sell every one. But batteries are in short supply. Tesla is addressing the battery problem and also building more lines of production so that they can start to fulfill the demand out there. Other makers are also trying to bring up more availability. It takes time to transition the car production infrastructure.

So while the statistics quoted above are probably numerically true, they do not actually lend any credence to the thesis of the article.

“One reason to be suspicious of electric cars overall, is that we haven’t solved any of the real problems that we’ve always thought they had,” said Michael Shellenberger, a climate expert who founded the group Environmental Progress.

Um... Any? We haven't? Are you insane?

I fully admit that there are some manufacturers that have not solved all the EV "problems" of yesteryear. Looking at you Chevy Bolt! But Tesla seems to have completely solved all the old-school issues that EV had and even improved on them from there. So the idea that the problems have not been solved is completely false. There certainly are some straggler companies out there. But technology is not the problem anymore.

“Much more should be done, in terms of climate change, to decarbonize the electric production sector, moving from coal to natural gas and uranium,” Shellenberger told the DCNF. “Transportation would not be where I would focus. But obviously there’s a lot of money to be made and a lot of interests that then turn around and fund the members who vote for this.”

Really? You are going to decarbonize by moving from coal to natural gas? That may lower the impact but it certainly does not fully decarbonize. And uranium? You want one of those plants in your backyard? It takes years and years to get a nuclear plant approved and built. That will not get us to full decarbonization in time.

And if you are not going to focus on transportation, you are just missing a huge carbon footprint that needs to be addressed ASAP. Plus by addressing transportation we get so many side benefits related to smog, respiratory health, child brain development, etc. Not focussing on transportation is just nuts.

The AAA research showed that most consumers are worried about the low availability of fast charging stations nationwide and about the distance an EV can travel before needing a charge. Gregg Brannon, AAA director of automotive engineering and industry relations, said EV adoption is happening at a slow rate and that “range anxiety” is a major reason.

OK, yes. For many manufacturers that have not solved the various technological issues for EVs, range anxiety can be a real thing. Personally, I've wanted to buy an EV for a very long time. On a daily commute level, older EVs really would have worked for me. But then there are the occasional road trips with a family that older EVs could not handle well. That was back before the charging infrastructure had been getting really built out.

Now though, get a normal Tesla and you are good to go. The family fits, it has plenty of range, and the charging infrastructure allows long road trips to most of the US. Problem solved.

Other manufacturers are getting there. In relatively short order they should be good too.

For many people who are not watching the EV sector, they may actually express range anxiety. But articles like this one are not helping matters at all.

But the U.S. and many other Western governments have made ambitious pledges to transition to EV’s as part of their efforts to combat climate change, even as consumers continue to show reluctance. In the U.S., President Joe Biden has vowed to ensure 50% of private car sales are electric by 2030 and that every addition to the federal governments’ massive vehicle fleet is an EV by 2035.

Consumers are certainly not the ones showing reluctance. The general populace is looking for ways to address climate change. But big corporations and government have been stalling and fighting to keep the status quo. If people had their way, we would be much further along on the transition.

In 2020, though, EV’s represented just 2% of new vehicle sales in the U.S., according to the International Energy Agency’s annual industry report released in April. That represented a decline in EV share of new sales.

Not sure how this is being measured. Seems unlikely but depending on how it is measured, I could see it being true for a short time frame. EV infrastructure is currently getting built out. And things like the Chevy Bolt production shutdowns don't help. The problem though is not one of demand. If the EVs were available, they would be getting sold.

“While they can’t do the job alone, electric vehicles have an indispensable role to play in reaching net-zero emissions worldwide,” IEA Executive Director Fatih Birol said in a statement following the report’s release.

Well since transportation does not cause 100% of the global carbon footprint, it is of course true that EVs alone can't get us to net-zero. That would be absurd. But I agree that they play an indispensable role.

EV’s have both a shorter range and are often more expensive to fuel than their gas-powered competitors, according to a report from the Anderson Economic Group (AEG) published in October.

OK, many EV's have an overall shorter range than many of the ICE vehicles. But unless you are talking about vehicles with lead-acid batteries (hello golf carts), the difference is not a problem for most driving. But recently there have been newer EVs coming to market that have even more range than the vast majority of ICE vehicles. In short order this range comparison is going to be swinging in favor of EVs. And once you get to these high-range vehicles, the range differences really don't matter much. In the end, it all comes down to bladder retention times.

“Unlike their reliable gas cars that have 300 or 400 miles of range that can be filled up at a number of gas stations in our country, you have to think about what available chargers you have and plan it out,” Patrick Anderson, the study’s author, previously told the Detroit Free Press. “It’s more than range anxiety, it’s a burden of constantly monitoring the charging status.”

Although the median range for EV’s has increased, it is only about 250 miles per full charge, according to the Department of Energy. Cars powered by gas have a median range of 412 miles by comparison.

Clearly, Patrick has never used the various software platforms that automate the charger plans for you. No constant monitoring is needed. And with the newer vehicles that have the higher range, you would practically have to try to get yourself into a range anxiety position.

There are now a number of EVs out that have over a 400 mile range. And this will be getting better once the 4860 batteries come fully to market.

Charging an EV is also more expensive than filling up a gas car, costing $12.95 per 100 miles compared to the $8.58 per 100 miles it costs to fuel a comparable vehicle with an internal combustion engine, the AEG report found. The study factored in the cost of electricity, EV registration taxes, cost of home chargers and “deadhead miles” or travel costs for time spent driving to a commercial charging station.

Um... So this is just plain wrong. And if you include registration taxes, cost of home chargers, and deadhead miles, you will need to do the same for ICE. But for ICE you should also be including engine maintenance and repair costs. Plus incidentals like oil changes, hazardous materials collection fees for the used oil, and environmental cleanup taxes for the spilled oils that end up in water supplies and poisoning fish etc. If you would like, you can stop reading here and go do those calculations for us.

The factors that ultimately make an EV more expensive to fuel than a regular car are factored into the price of gasoline at the pump, the report said.

Talk about glossing over core issues. This is soooo false.

The typical non-rural EV owner is 20-30 minutes from the closest commercial charging station, which take another 20-30 minutes to fully charge the vehicle, according to AEG. Slower chargers and at-home options may take hours.

And these same drivers can just plug in at home overnight while they are sleeping and get the vast majority of all their charging needs addressed. For most drivers, it is only the rare long distance road trip where they would need to go use a commercial charger. And the charger they use would not be the one 20-30 minutes from home. It would instead be the one just off the interstate that they would be naturally driving on during their road trip. This experience would be just like an ICE vehicle at a gas station.

And while some vehicles may need a 20-30 minute charge, that time is getting shorter on newer vehicles.

And the slower at-home chargers are fine because they are being used overnight while the driver is asleep. Not a time suck at all.

And from what I have seen, some people have the additional option of EV charging in the parking lot of their work. So even if it takes their vehicle a while to charge, it is not a time suck because they just continue to work like any other day while their vehicle is getting charged.

“For the infrastructure available as of the mid-2021 in metropolitan areas of the US, we estimate that typical time costs for EV drivers are about five to ten times that of comparable (internal combustion engine) drivers,” the report stated.

Your estimate would be very wrong. And again, for ICE vehicles, did you include time for regularly scheduled maintenance? Or engine troubles?

The cost of a new EV itself is also much higher than a traditional vehicle. The average dealer price of a new EV is about $51,532 while a new compact car is less than $23,000, according to Kelley Blue Book.

This cost disparity is currently still an issue if you only look at the raw sales price. But if you include savings from maintenance, charging, etc. the total cost over the lifetime of the vehicle is often actually better on the EV side of things.

But yes, sticker shock is a real thing. Some people cannot get over the initial costs. Right now though, we have far fewer EV's available compared to the number of people who want one. So the sticker price really doesn't matter. In time as the general availability of EVs comes up, the sticker prices will be coming down and newer cheaper models will become available.

The Build Back Better Act included a number of handouts that Democratic lawmakers hoped would incentivize more Americans to make the transition away from gas-powered cars. However, the more than $2 trillion bill was effectively killed Sunday when West Virginia Sen. Joe Manchin announced he wouldn’t vote for it.

From what I understand, the BBB plan is not 100% dead. But even if it never comes to fruition, EVs are a thing. And EVs are going to be taking over. And the cost of EVs is coming down over time. So really, this portion of the BBB plan isn't strictly necessary. Helpful if it comes to be, but not necessary.

The bipartisan infrastructure bill that Biden signed into law on Nov. 15 included the government’s first-ever investment in a nationwide EV charging infrastructure. The program is also intended to promote EV purchases, the Federal Highway Administration said.

Electric vehicle charging stations are currently found mainly in major cities, according to Pew Research. The availability of commercial charging infrastructure corresponds with where most new EV purchases take place.

However, critics have argued that such a provision would only encourage wealthy people to purchase EV’s.

Again, the real issue currently is the availability of EVs due to battery shortages. We need to solve the battery supply issue and subsequently the EV availability issue. EVs will take over. All markets.

“The public has an interest in the government setting the standard for how those electric refilling stations ought to be,” Shellenberger told the Daily Caller News Foundation. “But I don’t think it’s in the public’s interest to heavily subsidize EV charging infrastructure. That seems to me like a subsidy for affluent people.”

Either way, the charging infrastructure is getting built out. In a sense, the benefit of EVs is currently concentrated with the affluent because of cost and availability. But the charging infrastructure does not go away in time. Subsidizing it now still helps the lower end of the market as cheaper EVs come to the fore.

Tesla CEO Elon Musk echoed Shellenberger’s comments during a recent Wall Street Journal event, arguing in favor of a free market system over subsidies.

“Do we need support for gas stations? We don’t,” Musk told the WSJ. “So, there’s no need for support for a charging network.”

“I’m literally saying get rid of all subsidies,” he continued.

Um... While Elon did say that subsidies were not necessary, he was not echoing Shellenberger. I doubt Shellenberger meant to say that the oil and gas subsidies should also be removed.

 

[Sirfun]

I think you all covered all the BS in this article, and I hesitate to even bother with commenting on this crap. But, I must say that writer is one hell of a cherry picker!!!

 

[CyberGus]

This "article" is just another re-hash of the highly suspect AEG report.

EV FTW

 

[jerhenderson]

This "article" is just another re-hash of the highly suspect AEG report.

EV FTW

funded by EXXON I'm sure

 

[Bill906]

The study factored in the cost of electricity, EV registration taxes, cost of home chargers and “deadhead miles” or travel costs for time spent driving to a commercial charging station.

Except for occasional long trips virtually all EV owners that have a home charger will have ZERO deadhead miles driven. They can drive from their home directly to their destination and back without ever having to sidetrack to a gas station. It is not uncommon for me to make a trip to the gas station just to fill up and come right back home. Typically because I don’t want to deal with it during the morning commute, or in preparation for a trip.

 

[Jhodgesatmb]

The article offends everyone on this forum for the kinds of reasons offerred by O.P. But I hear these arguments all the time from friends. They are wrong of course, but they believe sources like Wall Street, CEOs, the news media, the government, etc. Some of the things they say are true. If you discount Tesla, range, infrastructure, safety, longevity, reliability, cost, and environmental sensitivity have not been successfully addressed. From those perspectives the BEV revolution is stalled. If all the traditional automakers are discount, leaving Tesla, Rivian, Lucid, BYD, etc., then many of these issues have been addressed of not solved. The big issue, then, is the i age of Tesla and Elon, and if these type of articles would address that and not fall back on these untruthful and lame arguments we might actually be able to agree with them more.

I guess we have to continue our 'evangelism' since the sources mentioned above aren't doing their due diligence and doing the job justice. Luckily no matter what they say, people see more and more Teslas on the road, and hear how happy owners are despite issues, and ultimately that will sway them.

 

[android04]

A lot of the things that are wrong or don't apply to everybody have been covered by other commenters already, but just wanted to mention one of them

"Charging an EV is also more expensive than filling up a gas car, costing $12.95 per 100 miles compared to the $8.58 per 100 miles it costs to fuel a comparable vehicle with an internal combustion engine, the AEG report found. The study factored in the cost of electricity, EV registration taxes, cost of home chargers and “deadhead miles” or travel costs for time spent driving to a commercial charging station."

The cost to charge the EV was obviously taken from really high cost public EV charging stations, where if you can charge at home it costs way less than $12.95 per 100 miles. On a Tesla Model 3, it's more like $2.50 per 100 miles if you pay $0.10/kWh. Also, if you charge at home it doesn't take but 10 seconds of time out of your day to plug and unplug, and there is no deadheading to a charging station.

 

[EV Rob]

Here's another similar article, filled with misinformation. Seems like there are more of these popping up everywhere, often quoting other misleading articles.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/oth...y-insurance/ar-AARXUFN?ocid=msedgntp#comments

Before buying, I compared insurance for our 2020 Model S to a comparably priced ICE vehicle, one that doesn't have the performance or other features of the Tesla. It was almost identical, (and a third of the price quoted here.)

Oh, and I tried to post a very moderate rebuttal to the article, and MSN refused to take it, saying it didn't meet their "guidelines." Hmmm.

 

[FutureBoy]

Oh, and I tried to post a very moderate rebuttal to the article, and MSN refused to take it, saying it didn't meet their "guidelines." Hmmm.

Guideline:
Don’t disagree with source articles.

Strangely, controversy brings more hits so one would think they would want opposing views brought to the fore.

 

[Zabhawkin]

As someone who lives in a rural area, and even with a 500 mile range on a ICE truck our excursions sometimes involve a bit of range anxiety. Let me say that even for my usage the article is BS.

This is another lie: Rural users don't need commercial charging. They don't pay urban recharging rates. They don't pay for parking. And who would drive 'dead head' to a charging station unless they're also already driving somewhere for a long distance? 60% of trips are less than six miles. Nearly everyone drives less than 30 miles on a typical day. Road trips or exceeding the range of a long-range are rarer events.

A little clarification? Are you talking about at home parking or parking in town?

At home yes there is little problem with getting power and a place to park. The only issue we have here is our local utility is really not that into upping the power rating at homes if that becomes necessary to add a 50 amp charger to your breaker box. As far as parking lots we don't pay there either but none have any charging infrastructure and probably wont ever get it installed. Even on the campus public charging is non existent.

We aren't going all in on electrification, we still have issues with towing long distances and the fact that none of the charging stations in the area are properly set up for truck and trailer. Though by the time our F-150 is due for replacement that should be fixed.

 

[Quicksilver]

FUD much?