Can our GRID keep up with DEMAND?

[fhteagle]

It will be easier to reduce use of the grid by 10% via rooftop solar than it will be to ADD 10% capacity!

Yes but it's batteries that will shave the evening peak, not the solar itself. Tax credits are fine, but a combination of steep TOU rates and high credits for power returned to the grid during regularly occurring and emergency peaks are what will get private owners to pony up for batteries and actually use them for peak shaving.

Batteries can also shave the bumps off of the dinosaur curve (think duck curve plus bursts for random DCFC high utilization). Operating behind the meter batteries as a virtual power plant to counterbalance DCFC usage spikes and lulls seems like "low hanging fruit" to me.

 

[PilotPete]

Yes but it's batteries that will shave the evening peak, not the solar itself. Tax credits are fine, but a combination of steep TOU rates and high credits for power returned to the grid during regularly occurring and emergency peaks are what will get private owners to pony up for batteries and actually use them for peak shaving.

Batteries can also shave the bumps off of the dinosaur curve (think duck curve plus bursts for random DCFC high utilization). Operating behind the meter batteries as a virtual power plant to counterbalance DCFC usage spikes and lulls seems like "low hanging fruit" to me.

Look no further than Tesla and the “Virtual Power Plant” as a solution to 95% of what we are concerned about. By installing solar on homes, and MegaPacks in neighborhoods, the solar charges the MegaPacks by day, and the homes use the MegaPacks by night. Our HOA has a proposal to consider the same thing. The new fusion spike reactors are the size of a CT and can power something like 30K homes. I believe the future is distributed local power, and not massive power plants.

 

[PilotPete]

We don't need old power plants. They have a shelf life, and new renewable sources are coming on line.

And we don't need to upgrade houses to charge EVs. The vast majority of miles can be taken care of on granny cables, let alone low power level 2 installations. It's not like people are using their ovens and driers all night.

-Crissa

The issue requiring upgrade is the total power on the breaker panel. Electrical code in every state I’m aware of won’t let you put 150A worth of breakers on a 100A panel. And saying you promise not to use all of them at once doesn’t satisfy code. So, if you have a 100A panel, and you have A/C, it’s unlikely you are going to get a level 2 charger in your garage. In order to change that, you have to upgrade the panel, and possibly upgrade the wire servicing the home. If enough people on the street do the same thing, then you might have to upgrade the wire from the nearest transformer to the street, And possibly that transformer. Enough streets do that and you have to upgrade the area transformer that services the transformer on that street, and possibly the lines out of the area transformer, And if enough areas do that… It gets to be a big ugly expensive project real quick.

As for new renewable resources, Sorry, I’d like you to meet California. Our usage is up, and our state-wide production is down. We buy power from surrounding states (at an inflated rate) now because of it. The only thing that is helping, is our population has more people moving out of the state each year than moving into the state. Some hogwash about taxes and cost of living and not being business friendly. Oh yeah, Musk moved out for the last reason. Oh well, stuff happens!

 

[azjohn]

So after watching the video my biggest take is the present administration is trying to convert everything from fossil fuels to electric without upgrading the grid before the change. I had an electrician from the company that does maintenance on my heat pumps and had a talk with him about the current electrical grid he formely worked as an industrial electrician he had told me the current grid is about 40 yrs old and needs to be upgraded in the worst way which shows with the rolling brown outs around the country especially in summer. It seems like the plan is to put the cart before the horse which isn’t a good plan.

i have no confidence in our government to manage an upgrade efficiently at least money wise I would much rather see tax money go directly to a company ( using Tesla as an example) who has their sh*t together when it comes to energy. I do see home solar being a positive but it needs to be cheaper to get more people willing to do it


I see no issue with closing coal plants down but their replacements need to be in place and operating before the switch is made

 

[cvalue13]

So after watching the video my biggest take is the present administration is trying to convert everything from fossil fuels to electric without upgrading the grid before the change. I had an electrician from the company that does maintenance on my heat pumps and had a talk with him about the current electrical grid he formely worked as an industrial electrician he had told me the current grid is about 40 yrs old and needs to be upgraded in the worst way which shows with the rolling brown outs around the country especially in summer. It seems like the plan is to put the cart before the horse which isn’t a good plan.

i have no confidence in our government to manage an upgrade efficiently at least money wise I would much rather see tax money go directly to a company ( using Tesla as an example) who has their sh*t together when it comes to energy. I do see home solar being a positive but it needs to be cheaper to get more people willing to do it


I see no issue with closing coal plants down but their replacements need to be in place and operating before the switch is made

The IIJ Act (Nov ‘21) earmarked $65B for national grid modernization.

That was neutered down to $9.7B for “rural reliability” in the IRA (Aug ‘22)

shouldn’t confuse whether there are people trying to accomplish these things, with the challenges to accomplishing them

 

[firsttruck]

The issue requiring upgrade is the total power on the breaker panel. Electrical code in every state I’m aware of won’t let you put 150A worth of breakers on a 100A panel. And saying you promise not to use all of them at once doesn’t satisfy code. So, if you have a 100A panel, and you have A/C, it’s unlikely you are going to get a level 2 charger in your garage. In order to change that, you have to upgrade the panel, and possibly upgrade the wire servicing the home. If enough people on the street do the same thing, then you might have to upgrade the wire from the nearest transformer to the street, And possibly that transformer. Enough streets do that and you have to upgrade the area transformer that services the transformer on that street, and possibly the lines out of the area transformer, And if enough areas do that… It gets to be a big ugly expensive project real quick.

As for new renewable resources, Sorry, I’d like you to meet California. Our usage is up, and our state-wide production is down. We buy power from surrounding states (at an inflated rate) now because of it. The only thing that is helping, is our population has more people moving out of the state each year than moving into the state. Some hogwash about taxes and cost of living and not being business friendly. Oh yeah, Musk moved out for the last reason. Oh well, stuff happens!

Code will need to change. Having 150A worth of breakers on a 100A panel was a problem with old technology but with new tech the breakers (& loads can be shed) can be automated to turnoff non-critical loads.

Load management

So yes the panels will need an upgrade but in many cases the size of grid service many not and thus the cascading upgrade of grid for neighborhood might be avoided too.


-------------------------------------------------

Why would someone might install "backup load center" (like Lumin) instead of a SPAN panel?

It comes down to the cost. Both are good solutions, but the Lumin panel is cheaper while providing a similar solution. The installation of a SPAN panel is also a bit more complex.

-------------------------------------------------

SPAN Panel | A smarter electrical panel
Monitoring and controls for every circuit. Compatible with leading battery systems.
https://www.span.io/panel


-------------------------------------------------


Lumin


New Lumin Distributed Load Management System
Solar Surge
Oct 21, 2022


-------------------------------------------------

Introducing the Square D™ Energy Center Smart Panel
The Square D™ Energy Center by Schneider Electric is an all-in-one smart electrical panel that makes solar, battery, and generator integration fast and easy. Designed with evolving residential needs in mind, the Square D Energy Center is the grid-to-plug smart panel for the modern, connected home.
May 3, 2022
Square D by Schneider Electric



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[TyPope]

As others have said these stories should be seen as entertainment, and are misleading. One major part of the story nobody has brought up is that California has been shutting down power generation for years, and now they're saying we need more infrastructure. I've seen lots of power plants shut down, so where's the truth? Here's a story about some of those shut-downs.

https://blog.ucsusa.org/mark-specht/gas-retirements-california/

BTW, the real problem with all these EVs is our homes mostly have 100-amp service. Upgrading all the homes is going to be a major pain!

100 amp service suffices easily enough for the average commuter. 15 amps for 6 hours while sleeping (and not using power for much at all) gives you more electricity than you'll most likely use on the average commute. Would it be better to have 200-amp service? Sure. Is it necessary? No.

You are right that there will be an upgrade pain but I feel that pain will be felt the most by apartment dwellers.

 

[fhteagle]

Further evidence of what I said in my last post. Let consumers get in the game, either via Tesla and/or via IEEE 2030.5 and OpenADR signaling to sell back to the grid at the right times, and reward the consumers as handsomely as other grid services providers get paid....

https://electrek.co/2023/07/05/tesla-electric-customers-report-making-150-day/

 

[CyberGus]

• If electricity becomes scarce, prices will rise
• Higher prices will lower demand
• Greater profitability will spur creation of new capacity
• Prices will lower when capacity exceeds supply

I don't know why CNBC doesn't believe in America or the free market

 

[PilotPete]

I don't know why CNBC doesn't believe in America or the free market

Let me try!

Cause they’re CNBC!

 

[Crissa]

The issue requiring upgrade is the total power on the breaker panel. Electrical code...

...Only refers to loads which can overlap. Modern electronics can split loads.

There are dozens of ways to do this. https://splitvolt.com/ for instance.

You're just stuck in the hole of not thinking around the problem.

And no, no one is shutting down coal plants before the replacement is online. That's just ridiculous. They're shutting down because coal is expensive - and that's without paying for the impact of putting more pollution into the environment: Coal plants create huge amounts of waste, emit more radiation than nuclear, and put more carbon into the atmosphere.

-Crissa

 

[charliemagpie]

I had a look at the current state of EV charging in Aus last night. It has changed a lot since I last looked. By a lot I mean, Vendors/contractors are coming out of the woodwork. some I had heard of before many I hadn't.

All with plans to expand quickly, many partnerships, many initiatives. Some big projects , many small projects, many locally driven initiatives.

Mushrooming before our eyes, but feels to me like a land grab. Yet, It is coming together quickly. From 2025 the transition will truly be in full swing, new companies across the nation will be striving to be part of the action. It will be exponential growth, and the change will take over quickly. imo

There will be no shortfall.

 

[Sirfun]

100 amp service suffices easily enough for the average commuter. 15 amps for 6 hours while sleeping (and not using power for much at all) gives you more electricity than you'll most likely use on the average commute. Would it be better to have 200-amp service? Sure. Is it necessary? No.

You are right that there will be an upgrade pain but I feel that pain will be felt the most by apartment dwellers.

You're right condo, and apartment dwellers are going to have some pain for sure.

It just really depends on situation of each household. When our home was built in 1970 things were way simpler, and 100 amp service was fine. But now put warmer temps, and we added AC, we added a granny flat for my mother-in law. We have 6 adults living here with 4 of them drivers. Plus everyone has their own room with TV and computers. My wife drives a PHEV, and I'm getting a Cybertruck. We could use a 200amp service connection. And a lot of homes are going through similar situations. We're talking about charging multiple EVs in a lot of households with much more electricity needs over time.

 

[TyPope]

You're right condo, and apartment dwellers are going to have some pain for sure.

It just really depends on situation of each household. When our home was built in 1970 things were way simpler, and 100 amp service was fine. But now put warmer temps, and we added AC, we added a granny flat for my mother-in law. We have 6 adults living here with 4 of them drivers. Plus everyone has their own room with TV and computers. My wife drives a PHEV, and I'm getting a Cybertruck. We could use a 200amp service connection. And a lot of homes are going through similar situations. We're talking about charging multiple EVs in a lot of households with much more electricity needs over time.

At least you have a bunch of contributing members in the household to help with the cost. 6 adults at home. You should be rolling in dough. Most only have 2 or sometimes 1 member who contributes to the household income. Cheers.

We converted a house from 100 to 200-amp service a while ago and I remember it was not very expensive to swap out the panel, add breakers, and get it all connected. I suppose things have chanced in the last couple of decades, LOL.

 

[CyberGus]

CNBC getting dunked on, again lol