Sandy's rant. lol. I love this man.

[Crissa]

One of the problems of EV fires is that water can't be used to affect more than one of the three corners of the fire triangle: Lithium batteries contain their own fuel and their own oxidizer, which means that only the heat of the fire can really be removed.

Most fire equipment is designed to flood a target with water, to suffocate as well as take down the temperature of the fire. What they really need in the case of lithium fires is to either dunk the car or mist the fire. Both of these solutions take far less water than just pouring it on the battery pack, but the fastest and easiest solution is just pouring water on the vehicle.

Until first responders carry specific gear to do flood and or use mist curtain thermal management, they'll continue having trouble with these fires.

Basically, they need little mist-sprayers they can shove under the battery pack and inflatable barriers to surround the vehicle and catch the water to recycle it. It's mostly different, not really worse.

-Crissa

 

[No-mo-ice]

What gets me crazy is when they talk about fires. What about all of the cell phones and toys that burst into flames, did they stop buying phones? Why… how can we live without our phones. They also argue about the damage it supposedly does to the environment. Yet billions of batteries a year are sold, but those people never get so pissed about that.

 

[No-mo-ice]

This reminds me about of the great seat belt controversy…. Meanwhile 10’s of thousands of people where dying because someone kept saying you’ll die in a fire because you won’t be able to get out.

If AI is so bad, why do almost all airlines use it, and have been used in auto pilot for at least40 years that I know of… and it’s way way way better than a human. I trust what they say when they talk about it being 300% better than human drivers… there is plenty of examples of that during my daily commute.

 

[Ogre]

If AI is so bad, why do almost all airlines use it, and have been used in auto pilot for at least40 years that I know of… and it’s way way way better than a human. I trust what they say when they talk about it being 300% better than human drivers… there is plenty of examples of that during my daily commute.

Just a quick nit to pick.

AI = Artificial Intelligence. Airlines might use it for things like ticket pricing to screw over customers, but there are very few aircraft that use it. None for navigation that I know of. AI is fairly new and hasn't been around in a practical sense for more than 10 years or so.

Autopilot = A generic term used to describe technology which assists pilots (and seamen) in holding course and altitude. Also used by Tesla as a brand for their driver assist technology which uses AI.

 

[Crissa]

Technically the autopilots used in modern airliners use more than a autobalancing stick, and do use AI now ^-^;

-Crissa

 

[firsttruck]

As for the battery fires, somebody needs to be investigating the crap out of them (EV fires in general, although Tesla is the biggest target).

Obviously gasoline catches fire, but most such fires are the result of collisions and don't occur spontaneously.
.......

Actual a significant number of ICE vehicle fires are NOT related to accidents.

So far I have owned a 15 cars in my life and two have caught fire. Neither fire was related an accident. I was in the car on each occasion. In one I was driving down the street when I noticed smoke starting to come out the internal air vents/air conditioning vents. The fire was in engine compartment wiring fortunately I was able to disconnect the battery and put the fire out. Lost all the wiring on the engine compartment. I replaced the wiring with a wiring harness from a junk car and was able to drive that car for another 6 years until the car was totaled in an accident. The second fire happened during a cross country trip while I was parked at a rest area in the middle of nowhere. Was supposed to be just a 5 minute bathroom break. When I got back in the car I noticed smoke. Unfortunately this time I was not able to put the fire out and the whole car burned to the ground.

Spontaneous fire in ICE vehicles is fairly common even in brand new cars. Many times ICE car OEMs have warned customers not to park their car in garage or near buildings.


All the examples below are ICE vehicles

------------


Mercedes-Benz is supposed to be one of the most respected car maker, so you would think you could safely buy one of their vehicles without having to worry about it bursting into flames.

Unfortunately, you would be wrong. In 2017, Mercedes-Benz recalled one (1) million cars in response to 51 instances of their vehicles catching fire due to a defective starter motor. In 2015, Mercedes-Benz USA recalled 150,000 E-class and CLS-class vehicles due to a faulty rubber seal in the engine bay that had become a fire hazard. In 2016, a Portland man watched as his C300 caught fire and then exploded just a week after he'd bought it.

------------

Overheating BMW bursts into flames on the side of the road
The driver had noticed the car was overheating and quickly pulled off the motorway
By Ben Eccleston
24 JUL 2020 Updated 24 JUL 2020
https://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/overheating-car-bursts-flames-side-18653555


Approximately 17,000 BMW cars recalled for fear that overheating of the plug (wiring connector in the internal engine bay/dashboard) could cause a fire
By Kane Nicholls
2021 April
https://sydneynewstoday.com/approxi...eating-of-the-plug-could-cause-a-fire/136647/


BMW cars recalled over fears they could burst into flames
A luxury car brand has recalled several models across Australia over fears the vehicles could burst into flames.
Erin Lyons
NCA NewsWire
January 29, 2021
https://www.news.com.au/technology/...s/news-story/ef313059eb4bc9269104d9a57ec10dd8


------------

BMW aficionado Bill Macko's 2008 X5 caught fire while parked in his garage in 2015, it destroyed his house.
Roughly a million vehicles of varying models dating back to 2007 have been recalled due to fire risk. The danger has been traced to fuel leaks, overheating wires, short-circuiting heaters, defective exhaust gas re-circulation module (EGR coolers).

In November 2016, BMW recalled 136,000 2007–2012 model year U.S. cars for fuel pump wiring problems possibly resulting in fuel leak, fires and engine stalling or restarting issues.

In 2018, BMW recalled 106,000 diesel vehicles in South Korea with a defective exhaust gas recirculation module, which caused 39 engine fires. The recall was then expanded to 324,000 more cars in Europe. Following the recall in South Korea, the government banned cars which had not yet been inspected from driving on public roads. This affected up to 25% of the recalled cars, where the owners had been notified but the cars had not yet been inspected.
** It was reported that BMW KNEW since 2016 that more than 4% of the affected cars in South Korea had experienced failures in the EGR coolers, leading to approximately 20 owners suing the company (30 July 2019). **


BMW Sparks Airport Garage Fire That Destroys 8 Cars, Burns 10 Others
Seattle, WA, USA
By Patrick George
5/01/2013
https://jalopnik.com/bmw-sparks-airport-garage-fire-that-destroys-8-cars-bu-486372168


2001, BMW announced a recall to refit cars they said had been responsible for two static-related fires while refueling at gas station:
BMW AG said it is recalling all of its new Mini cars sold in Britain to fix a design fault that already has caused two fires — days before the relaunched classic car goes on sale across Europe. The improved grounding is to prevent static electricity from producing a spark when the fuel nozzle is inserted into the gas tank, BMW spokesman Rudolf Probst said. The company blamed static electricity for igniting fuel vapor and causing two small fires, one in a car at a dealership and the other during testing.


BMW Upset With ABC News for Reporting Their Cars Randomly Explode
Why is this happening?
By Eric Brandt
May 16, 2017
https://www.thedrive.com/article/10...ews-for-reporting-their-cars-randomly-explode


As mysterious BMW fires continue, calls for investigation into possible causes grow
Critics say the government auto-safety watchdog is failing to protect consumers.
90 complaints have been filed by owners
By Kyra Phillips,Cindy Galli,Cho Park,Halley Freger, Pete Madden
5 February 2019
https://abcnews.go.com/US/mysterious-bmw-fires-continue-calls-investigation-grow/story?id=60843215


------------


BMW Mini Cooper
2011, South Wales resident Karina Collins was driving her Mini Cooper on the M4 when it suddenly lost power. As she pulled over, it became clear that the Coop was on fire. She left all her belongings inside and escaped without harm. The incident was one of four known fire cases stemming from an electrical fault in the turbocharger cooling system. This prompted Mini to make a massive recall of turbocharged models produced between 2007 and 2011. However, in January 2017, a Mini Cooper caught fire in California, and then in August 2017, another burned in Missouri.

January 2012 recall of nearly 89,000 Mini Coopers that might spontaneously catch fire. The culprit is an electronic circuit board on certain turbochargers. The circuit board has the potential to malfunction and ultimately overheat, and the result is a smoldering water pump that may lead to a fire in the vehicle’s engine.

--------------------------------------

2016 Official Ford Bulletin - Coolant Leak 5.0L DOHC – 2015 Ford F-150
coolant leak caused by a heater outlet hose becoming disconnected at the heater outlet.
April 6, 2016
https://ford.oemdtc.com/907/coolant-leak-5-0l-dohc-2015-ford-f-150-mustang

--------------------------------------

2017 - Ford recalls 570K vehicles for fire risk, door latch trouble
Dealers will install a coolant level sensor and a warning light on the dashboard.
Ford is also adding 211,000 vehicles to a 2015 recall to replace faulty door latches.
Door latches have been a major problem for Ford vehicles during the past three years, resulting in investigations by the U.S. NHTSA and recalls of over 3 million vehicles.
March 29, 2017
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ford-recalls-570k-vehicles-for-fire-risk-door-latch-trouble/

--------------------------------------

2018 - Ford to recall 200,000 vehicles to fix coolant leaks and fire risk
Tom Krisher The Associated Press
Published Wednesday, January 3, 2018
https://www.ctvnews.ca/autos/ford-to-fix-coolant-leaks-in-vehicles-recalled-for-fire-risk-1.3744183

Ford Coolant Leak Recall to Begin Soon
At the time of the March 2017 recall announcement, Ford had recorded 29 such fires.
Ford Escapes, Fiesta STs, Fusions and Transit Connects at risk of fires due to coolant leaks.
By David A. Wood, CarComplaints.com
January 4, 2018
https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2018/ford-coolant-leak-recall.shtml

--------------------------------------

2012 - Ford recalls brand-new Escape SUVs to fix coolant leaks
It's the third recall in less than two months for the new Escape, which had been completely redesigned.
Posted Sep 05, 2012
https://www.masslive.com/business-news/2012/09/ford_recalls_brand-new_escape_suvs_to_fi.html

2012 - Ford Recalls 2013 Escape for Potential Engine Coolant Leak
By Rachel Smith
September 06, 2012
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks...2013-escape-for-potential-engine-coolant-leak

--------------------------------------

2001 - F150 5.4L coolant leak
cause: bad design & plastic drain valve
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/6513-f150-5-4l-coolant-leak.html
.....
#5
06-30-2002, 02:36 AM
da_vinci_1
>Hey,,just noticed you are having the same problem as i am.
>Did you find a fix ?

Yes I did fix this problem. I searched hi and low and found that the problem is that on the 5.4 engines (at least mine) has a some sort of plastic drain valve (it's round and plastic right above the 2nd/3rd coil pack). Well, the engineers at ford were just not smart enough to figure out that plastic will expand and shrink more than metal, especially in an engine bay and especially where liquid is flowing right above the coilpaks. Well the problem is that the "drain valve" was leaking coolant only when the engine was shut off (this is when the plastic cap on it would shrink causing coolant to be leaked out onto the coilpak #3 and fill that up, then run down to #4 and fill that up, then finally overfills and leaks down the firewall area and onto the tranny, the engine is slanted a bit towards the back so liquid will flow towards the back.

That through time (although it won't take much of it) will cause the plugs to be rusted and ruin the coilpaks. I went to the ford dealer and told them about this problem and they did not even care nor think this problem existed. I know that with this defect on the truck, I can't be the only person that's had this problem. I even asked them to lookup recalls and there was none on anything like this. Really, I can't see how ford not do a recall on this problem.

The fix is to remove the coilpaks, and replace the plugs. My #3 and #4 plug were soooooo rusted that I hardly got it out since the heads of them were rusted till they're round! But with the right tools and lots of elbow grease, I got them out and replaced the plugs and reset the ECU and no more check engine lights and smooth idle.

--------------------------------------

 

[Ogre]

Actual a significant number of ICE vehicle fires are NOT related to accidents.

I think he is right though. "Most" ICE fires are the result of accidents.

Most EV fires happen while parked and charging.

That doesn't mean EVs are more prone to fires while parked though. Just that ICE vehicles are prone to catching fire when struck. EVs are much more resilient in accidents and catch fire only during particularly violent crashes.

The big question is how many EVs catch fire total versus the number on the road.

 

[Crissa]

Most EV fires happen while parked and charging.

I don't know if that's true. If the battery pck is exposed to enough heat or damage, it will burn. Most of the EV fires are probably not charging but damage.

-Crissa

 

[firsttruck]

As for the battery fires, somebody needs to be investigating the crap out of them (EV fires in general, although Tesla is the biggest target).

Obviously gasoline catches fire, but most such fires are the result of collisions and don't occur spontaneously.
.....

--------------------------------------------------------

Kia Sorento and Optima, and Hyundai Santa Fe and Sonata manufactured from 2011-2014, and Kia Soul manufactured from 2010-2015
Kia and parent company Hyundai has recently been urged to recall nearly 3 million cars and SUVs with complaints of vehicles catching fire while driving.

Drivers have filed 220 complaints of fires and 200 complaints of smoldering wires. These fires happen during normal driving.


--------------------------------------------------------

Jan 23 2019

U.S. Highway Loss Data Institute, which analyzes data from insurance companies, found that some Hyundai and Kia vehicles equipped with four-cylinder engines have double the non-crash fire claim rates than the average of comparable vehicles.

firsttruck * Insurance claims means these were actual fires not just precautionary recalls *

--------

5 Hyundai and Kia models have higher-than-average fire insurance claim rates
Associated Press
Jan 23 2019
https://www.autoblog.com/2019/01/23/5-hyundai-kia-models-fire-insurance-claims/


**
Jan 2019 Hyundai & Kia announced recall about 168,000 vehicles to fix a fuel pipe problem that can cause fires. The problem stems from improper repairs during previous recalls for engine failures.
**
They also announced additional sensor software for another 3.7 million vehicles.

Hyundai and Kia started recalling 1.7 million vehicles in 2015 — about 618,000 of which are Kias — because manufacturing debris can restrict oil flow to connecting rod bearings. That can cause bearings in 2-liter and 2.4-liter four-cylinder engines to wear and fail. The problem can also cause fires. The repair in many cases is an expensive engine block replacement.

.....
The institute began studying fire claims after the Center for Auto Safety petitioned NHTSA last year seeking a wider recall of Hyundai and Kia vehicles. The center had found a higher-than-normal number of consumer complaints about Hyundai and Kia fires in the agency's database. NHTSA has used Highway Loss Data Institute studies in the past to help make recall decisions.


--------------------------------------------------------

Years later there more fires and recalls of newer models (2021).

Hyundai warned over 651,000 Hyundai Tucson SUVs and Kia Stinger sedans owners to
• Park outside until the vehicles are repaired.
• Do not drive the vehicle.
• Disconnect the vehicle’s 12-volt battery while it is waiting to be serviced.
• Contact your local Hyundai dealer.

More Hyundai SUVs Recalled Due to Fire Risk
By Keith Barry
Last updated: January 11, 2021
https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/more-recalls-for-hyundai-kia-vehicles-fire-risk/

--------------------------------------------------------

 

[CyberGus]

"The leading causes of vehicle fires were mechanical failures or malfunctions and electrical failures or malfunctions. Older vehicles accounted for three-quarters of the highway vehicle fires caused by mechanical or electrical failures or malfunctions. Maintenance is important throughout the vehicle’s years of use.

Collisions were the leading cause of vehicle fires that resulted in death."

https://www.nfpa.org/-/media/Files/...nd-reports/US-Fire-Problem/osvehiclefires.pdf

 

[firsttruck]

More ICE vehicle spontaneity.

Many are NOT because of bad car factory workmanship or poor owner maintenance or extreme age of vehicle issues. Many are caused by ICE OEMs cutting corners in design or just the so many failure points possible in ICE with high temps, pressures, lots flammable fluids (fuel & different oils). Unlike accidents that are random, the ICE OEMs found issues yet in many cases continued for years and years to make then known defective designs that resulted in deaths & injuries.


------------

More Fords

Ford Cruise Control Deactivation Switch Fires
During a 10-year period that stretched from 1999 to 2009, Ford Motor Company issued eight different recalls for a total of more than 14 million vehicles (cars, pickups, SUVs, vans) equipped with a faulty cruise-control deactivation switch. Fires in these vehicles caused numerous house and garage fires, and resulted in deaths in several states. ** Owners were advised to park their vehicles outside and away from any structure ** until repairs made.

In October 2009, the largest single recall in Ford’s history was announced when 4.5 million vehicles equipped with the faulty switch were recalled. Models in that recall included the popular Ford Windstar, Ford Explorer and Ford Ranger. The faulty switches, manufactured by Texas Instruments, were known to leak hydraulic fluid. The leaking fluid could overheat, smoke and possibly catch fire, even when the vehicle was parked and turned off. Over the course of that 10-year recall period, hundreds of fires were reported and thousands of complaints were logged by the NHTSA.
The World's Most Famous Explosive Cars
By Melissa Hincha-Ownby
2019 August 06
https://www.treehugger.com/the-worlds-most-famous-explosive-cars-4863775


On April 25, 1996, Ford Motor Company recalled 7.9 million vehicles for defective ignition switches that could short circuit and start fires in parked vehicles with the engine off because the switch circuit was a non-fused circuit & hot or powered at all times. The switches, which run continuously even when the vehicle is not in operation, are prone to fail over time and cause electrical fires.


Ford Cruise Control Deactivation Switch Recalls and History
https://www.autosafety.org/ford-cruise-control-deactivation-switch-recalls-and-history/


Ford Recalls 874,000 F-150, Super Duty Pickup Trucks Over Fire Concerns With the Engine Block
By Emily Gillespie
December 21, 2018
https://fortune.com/2018/12/21/ford-recalls-f150-super-duty-trucks-in-north-america-us-fire-engine/
https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/21/for...-trucks-in-north-america-for-fire-risks-.html


2020 Ford F-150: Recall Alert
The Problem: There may be an improper attachment nut used to fasten the positive battery cable to the starter motor, which may not provide a secure connection to the starter or the required conductive properties. This could increase the potential for incremental heat generation during a vehicle start cycle and electrical arcing, increasing the risk of a fire.
By Patrick Masterson
August 12, 2020
https://www.cars.com/articles/2020-ford-f-150-recall-alert-425265/


------------


General Motors plans to recall 1.4 million cars, most of which had previously been recalled, because of a risk they might catch fire.
The recall will be the third intended to fix the problem since 2007.
1,345 of the cars caught fire AFTER they were previously fixed by dealers.
In all of the fires, oil leaked onto a hot manifold in the engine. About 85% of the fires took place when the car was shut off and there was no one around the car.
GM sent to owners strongly recommended "you not park your vehicle in a garage, car port or other structure."
by Chris Isidore @CNNMoney
October 27, 2015
https://money.cnn.com/2015/10/27/autos/gm-recall-fire/


1984-1988, the GM Pontiac Fiero
To help deal with the crowded engine bay, Pontiac reduced the size of the oil pan from four quarts to three, meaning the Fiero always ran out of oil sooner than its owner expected. Add to this the fact that people tried to drive it like a sports car (even though it wasn't really one), and the Fiero was a recipe for disaster.
*** one out of every 400 Fieros on the road caught fire. ***


1970-1974 Chevy Vega
Rust was a major issue. The engine was prone to overheating, a problem that was exasperated by its undersized radiator (which Chevy did to save money). It also had carburetor mounting bolts that would come loose, causing fuel to leak and catch fire. In 1972, Chevrolet recalled 500,000 Vegas in order to fix the problem, as well as the faulty axles and throttles.


------------


Vauxhall (UK) model 2009-2015 Zafira is basically a time bomb due to problems with its heating and ventilation system. After more than 130 instances of Zafiras bursting into flame, the company was forced to make a recall in 2015, followed by another in 2016. Soon after, it was revealed that Vauxhall actually knew of the fire risk as far back as 2009 but did nothing until 2015. Vauxhall is recalling 235,000 Zafira ** for a third time ** over new fears the vehicles could catch fire.


Media 1st blamed EV but ICE Responsible For Burning 300 cars
Norway Airport Police say fire started in a 2005 turbo-diesel Opel Zafira
By Gustavo Henrique Ruffo
Jan 09, 2020
https://insideevs.com/news/392047/bloomberg-ev-fire-cause-diesel/

---------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Ogre]

I don't know if that's true. If the battery pck is exposed to enough heat or damage, it will burn. Most of the EV fires are probably not charging but damage.

-Crissa

Since I don't have any stats on this, I'm going to punt.

I am confident that the chances of a vehicle fire after a collision are far less with a Tesla than an ICE vehicle. Which is more or less what I was trying to get at.

 

[Ogre]

Collisions were the leading cause of vehicle fires that resulted in death

Well sure, if you remove the bit where you get smashed against a tree or plummet off a cliff, it's a lot easier to escape a burning vehicle.

My daughter's car caught fire while she was driving (years ago, she's safe insurance paid her off). No collision, her car lost power and when she pulled over, it was on fire... she walked off safely.

Maintenance is important throughout the vehicle’s years of use.

I wonder if poorly maintained EVs are going to be prone to randomly catching fire while driving down the highway. Or more likely to catch fire wile charging for that matter. Batteries are largely self-contained. Assuming the pack isn't pierced, how long are they safe for?

 

[CyberGus]

 

[HaulingAss]

The big question is how many EVs catch fire total versus the number on the road.

Ev's catch fire at the rate of about 9% that of ICE vehicles (per mile travelled). I don't think there is a big difference between the miles an EV travels and that of ICE so the figure should be roughly the same for number of registered vehicles.