Elon Musk says Tesla may have to get into the lithium business because costs are so ‘insane’

[TruckElectric]

CLEAN TECH
Elon Musk says Tesla may have to get into the lithium business because costs are so ‘insane’
PUBLISHED FRI, APR 8 20224:09 PM EDTUPDATED 3 HOURS AGO

Catherine Clifford@IN/CATCLIFFORD/@CATCLIFFORD
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KEY POINTS

• Elon Musk tweeted Tesla may get into the lithium mining and refining business directly and at scale because the cost of the metal, a key component in manufacturing batteries, have gotten so high.
• “Price of lithium has gone to insane levels,” Musk tweeted.
• Lithium deposits are not uncommon in the US, but refining resources are limited.

Elon Musk tweeted Tesla may get into the lithium mining and refining business directly and at scale because the cost of the metal, a key component in manufacturing batteries, has gotten so high.

“Price of lithium has gone to insane levels,” Musk tweeted. “There is no shortage of the element itself, as lithium is almost everywhere on Earth, but pace of extraction/refinement is slow.”

The Tesla and SpaceX tech boss was responding to a tweet showing the average price of lithium per tonne in the last two decades, which showed a massive increase in prices since 2021. According to Benchmark Mineral Intelligence, the cost of the metal has gone up more than 480% in the last year.



There are indeed deposits of lithium all over the United States, according to the the U.S. Geological Survey, a division of the U.S. Department of Interior.

Lithium is valuable in electric vehicle batteries because it is both the lightest metal and the least dense solid element. That means that batteries made with lithium have a high power-to-weight ratio, which is important when dealing with transportation.

Friday’s tweet is not the first time Musk has raised the idea of Tesla mining its own lithium.
In 2020, Tesla secured its own rights to mine lithium in Nevada after a deal to buy a lithium mining company fell through, according to Fortune, which was siting “people familiar with the matter.”



https://www.cnbc.com/2022/04/08/elo...et-into-mining-refining-lithium-directly.html


Elon Musk Says Tesla May Begin Controversial Environmental Practice
The leader of tech behemoth Tesla has been thinking about adding a new section to the business.

• RILEY GUTIÉRREZ MCDERMID

The leader of tech behemoth Tesla (TSLA) - Get Tesla Inc Report has been thinking about adding a new section to the business, he tweeted on April 8.

Tesla, which makes electric vehicles, has been rolling out new products at a fast pace and founder Elon Musk is known for being involved in even its smallest details.

That was evident on April 7 when Musk debuted the company's new Austin, Texas Gigafactory and rolled out its first Cybertruck models himself.

But the company has come in for substantial criticism in how it treats its workers, with lawsuits filed over conditions at its factories, and long-time devotion to aiming for no unions within its workforce.

It also has been targeted for how expensive its luxury vehicles are and how long the waitlist can be for consumers who want to buy them, as interest in the EV market shoots up 70% from January.

While the anti-union stance appears to have softened lately, with Musk now working amiably with officials from President Joe Biden's administration, it appears there are still a few new types of controversy to court.

The latest one has now arrived, as Musk wraps up a dizzying week of headlines, new product announcement, stock market moves and diplomacy.

Tesla May Segue Into the Mining Business
Musk said on April 8 that Tesla has been closely watching how expensive the element lithium is — and could start a mining and refining business to fill a market gap.

The price of lithium, which is used in a batteries of all types, has skyrocketed more than 480% in the last year, and market players have been rushing in to grab a piece of the action.

Tesla, which already owns a lithium mine in Nevada, is watching that process with interest, Musk tweeted.

“Price of lithium has gone to insane levels,” Musk tweeted. “There is no shortage of the element itself, as lithium is almost everywhere on Earth, but pace of extraction/refinement is slow.”

Lithium is coveted for being extremely lightweight, a critical component to creating tech that isn't weighed down and can be transported easily. It is also less toxic than other minerals and elements used to make batteries.



Is Lithium Mining Safe?
Still, there are some substantial barriers to entry of the lithium market.

The element itself is needs a resource-rich extraction process involving saline, and it has been blamed for a variety of environmental impacts.

Mining itself can cause contaminated soil, toxic waste, water loss, increased salinity of rivers, ground destabilization and biodiversity loss.

"After the brine is pumped out from underneath the salt flat, it is left to evaporate through a series of ponds for 12–18 months, forming a mixture of potassium, magnesium, borax and lithium salts," according to researcher Laura Grace Simpkins.

"For a tonne of lithium, up to 2 million litres of water are required," she reports. "The majority of this is lost to the sky."

Refining lithium is also complex and linked to adding toxic gases to the Earth's atmosphere, an interesting hobby for a company that prides itself on its mission to get as many human beings in zero-emission vehicles as possible.

"The entire lithium extraction process contributes to an increase in carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases in the atmosphere," Eco Jungle reports. "Lithium miners cut down trees and remove all other life forms from their targeted mining areas to eliminate obstructions."

https://www.thestreet.com/latest-news/elon-musk-lithium

 

[JBee]

That doesn't bode well for Western Australia that produces nearly half of the worlds lithium, unless he comes here to do it.

 

[TruckElectric]

That doesn't bode well for Western Australia that produces nearly half of the worlds lithium, unless he comes here to do it.

Why?

 

[JBee]

Why?

In the article it says he wants to do it locally in the USA instead? I don't mind prices going down as a consumer but a lot of regional mines are the lifeblood of towns who sell everything globally. So long the net effect is reduction of prices to sustainable levels its fine, if it goes beyond that it could start having a negative effect here.

 

[TruckElectric]

In the article it says he wants to do it locally in the USA instead? I don't mind prices going down as a consumer but a lot of regional mines are the lifeblood of towns who sell everything globally. So long the net effect is reduction of prices to sustainable levels its fine, if it goes beyond that it could start having a negative effect here.

If Tesla does get into mining lithium I suspect they will use all the mine can supply. If not whatever is left over can't reduce the global price too significantly.

I think Elon believes they can mine/refine cheaper than what they can get from suppliers.

 

[Crissa]

Pretty sure there's not going to be a global glut of lithium any time soon. But keeping extraction to be low-water and low-impact is tough when it started eating into profits.

But we need to not shove the damages onto someone else down the line. Take advantage of the high price to extract lithium sustainably.

-Crissa

 

[JBee]

Pretty sure there's not going to be a global glut of lithium any time soon. But keeping extraction to be low-water and low-impact is tough when it started eating into profits.

But we need to not shove the damages onto someone else down the line. Take advantage of the high price to extract lithium sustainably.

-Crissa

Comes back to fuel cost again atm, need to get that down again, all the mines here run vehicles and machinery on fossil. Problem is it all needs to run 24/7, the mine next door to us has 170MW of power generation, their own desalination plant etc, all of which is run on diesel and is not connected to our town microgrid that is only 100th of the size at 1.7MW. The nearest other power generation on the grid is 450km away.

 

[Crissa]

Comes back to fuel cost again atm, need to get that down again, all the mines here run vehicles and machinery on fossil. Problem is it all needs to run 24/7, the mine next door to us has 170MW of power generation, their own desalination plant etc, all of which is run on diesel and is not connected to our town microgrid that is only 100th of the size at 1.7MW. The nearest other power generation on the grid is 450km away.

Maybe they should run on solar and not operate 24/7.

-Crissa

 

[JBee]

Maybe they should run on solar and not operate 24/7.

-Crissa

If only fossils and fiat currency weren't so intrinsically connected and co-dependent. Then all the prices would be "more real" to begin with.
You can't just stop and start a lot of the mining processes.

They'd probably need 500MW of solar and about 800 Megapacks to do the same. I wonder how long that would take to mine...

 

[firsttruck]

Comes back to fuel cost again atm, need to get that down again, all the mines here run vehicles and machinery on fossil. Problem is it all needs to run 24/7, the mine next door to us has 170MW of power generation, their own desalination plant etc, all of which is run on diesel and is not connected to our town microgrid that is only 100th of the size at 1.7MW. The nearest other power generation on the grid is 450km away.

Sounds interesting. That is a lot of diesel.

Is it a open pit mine or is it a underground tunnel mine?

Can you tell us the name of the mining company and where the mine is located?

 

[firsttruck]

Elon Musk says Tesla may have to get into the lithium business because costs are so ‘insane’
PUBLISHED FRI, APR 8 2022
.....
Is Lithium Mining Safe?
The element itself is needs a resource-rich extraction process involving saline, and it has been blamed for a variety of environmental impacts.

Mining itself can cause contaminated soil, toxic waste, water loss, increased salinity of rivers, ground destabilization and biodiversity loss.

"After the brine is pumped out from underneath the salt flat, it is left to evaporate through a series of ponds for 12–18 months, forming a mixture of potassium, magnesium, borax and lithium salts," according to researcher Laura Grace Simpkins.

"For a tonne of lithium, up to 2 million litres of water are required," she reports. "The majority of this is lost to the sky."

Refining lithium is also complex and linked to adding toxic gases to the Earth's atmosphere, an interesting hobby for a company that prides itself on its mission to get as many human beings in zero-emission vehicles as possible.

"The entire lithium extraction process contributes to an increase in carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases in the atmosphere," Eco Jungle reports. "Lithium miners cut down trees and remove all other life forms from their targeted mining areas to eliminate obstructions."

https://www.thestreet.com/latest-news/elon-musk-lithium

--------------------------------------


This is just like the much hyped & brouhaha'ed claims that all EV batteries kill children because some batteries use cobalt. Oil refining also uses cobalt but in over 100 years never was there a big deal about killing children. Or the other false hype that EVs and renewables are worse for the environment than production and use of fossil fuels.

Most all mining types (coal, iron ore, copper, bauxite (aluminum ore), phosphate rock, gypsum, feldspar, lead, nickel, coal, gold, silver, etc..) and also drilling/pumping/transport/use of crude oil & products will use a lot of fresh water and contaminate a lot of land ( soil ).

Lithium once mined and made into EV batteries can last 10-20 years and then be recycled multiple times. Lithium batteries used in vehicles/homes/businesses do not leak out on garage floors, parking lots, roadways to be washed into our groundwater, lakes, rivers, and eventually the ocean.

Everyday lots of land is contaminated by coal mining, coal usage (coal ash), crude oil well spills/leaks, crude oil refinery/pipelines/ocean tankers spills/leaks, gas station spills/leaks, motor oil disposal, vehicle motor-oil/gas/diesel drippings/droppings on floors/parking/roads.

Many more sites and more total acreage will be and are contaminated by fossil fuel industry & usage of fossil fuels than by Lithium battery related activities.


Everyday billions of coal mining, coal usage (coal ash), crude oil well spills/leaks, crude oil refinery/pipelines/ocean tankers spills/leaks, gas station spills/leaks, motor oil disposal, vehicle motor-oil/gas/diesel drippings/droppings on floors/parking/roads contaminate fresh water.

Just recently there was a big hyped brouhaha about the new Tesla Giga factory at Berlin/Brandenburg was going to allegedly use way too much fresh water when down the street there is a coal mining operation using 100 times more water than the Tesla Giga factory.

----------------------------

Oil in the Sea: Inputs, Fates, and Effects News Release | May 23, 2002
https://www.nationalacademies.org/news/2002/05/oil-in-the-sea-inputs-fates-and-effects

Nearly 85 percent of the 29 million gallons of petroleum that enter North American ocean waters each year as a result of human activities comes from land-based runoff, polluted rivers, airplanes, and small boats and jet skis, while less than 8 percent comes from tanker or pipeline spills, says a new report from the National Academies' National Research Council. Oil exploration and extraction are responsible for only 3 percent of the petroleum that enters the sea. Another 47 million gallons seep into the ocean naturally from the seafloor. "Oil spills can have long-lasting and devastating effects on the ocean environment, but we need to know more about damage caused by petroleum from land-based sources and small watercraft since they represent most of the oil leaked by human activities," said James M. Coleman, chair of the committee that wrote the report, and Boyd Professor, Coastal Studies Institute, Louisiana State University, Baton Rouge.

.....
Worldwide, about 210 million gallons of petroleum enter the sea each year from the extraction, transportation, and consumption of crude oil and the products refined from it, with an additional 180 million gallons coming from natural seepage, the report says.


----------------------------

Large-scale remediation of oil-contaminated water using floating treatment wetlands Muhammad Afzal, Khadeeja Rehman, Ghulam Shabir, Razia Tahseen, Amna Ijaz, Amer J. Hashmat & Hans Brix
npj Clean Water volume 2, Article number: 3 (2019)
Published: 10 January 2019
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41545-018-0025-7

.....
Drilling and extraction processes for oil and gas generate huge volumes of oil-contaminated water, with the global generation of oil-contaminated water estimated to be 33.6 million barrels per day.

.....
Worldwide, water contaminated with crude oil is usually stored in evaporation pits before eventual discharge into the environment without any treatment.

----------------------------

FAQ: The Science and History of Oil Spills
By Andrea Thompson
published April 23, 2010
https://www.livescience.com/9885-faq-science-history-oil-spills.html

.....
According to the U.S. Department of Energy, 1.3 million gallons (4.9 million liters) of petroleum are spilled into U.S. waters from vessels and pipelines in a typical year. A major oil spill could easily double that amount.

.....
Q: Where do most oil spills happen in the world?
Analysts for the Oil Spill Intelligence Report have reported that spills in that size range have occurred in the waters of 112 nations since 1960. But certain areas see more spills than others. The Report identifies these "hot spots" for oil spills from vessels:
Gulf of Mexico (267 spills)
Northeastern U.S. (140 spills)
Mediterranean Sea (127 spills)
Persian Gulf (108 spills)
North Sea (75 spills)
Japan (60 spills)
Baltic Sea (52 spills)
United Kingdom and English Channel (49 spills)
Malaysia and Singapore (39 spills)
West coast of France and north and west coasts of Spain (33 spills)
Korea (32 spills)

.....
"Analysts for the Oil Spill Intelligence Report track oil spills of at least 10,000 gallons (34 tonnes). In their annual International Oil Spill Statistics report for 1999, they reported that in that year about 32 million gallons of oil spilled into the water or onto land, in 257 incidents. Of those incidents, only 11 were spills from tankers, accounting for about 6.6 million gallons, or about one-fifth of the total volume of oil spilled. Twenty-five of the 257 spills were from barges and other kinds of vessels, such as freighters (totaling 1.5 million gallons). Eighteen spills were from trucks or railroad trains (totaling about half a million gallons). The largest number of spills, and the largest volume of oil spilled were from accidents involving pipelines or fixed facilities (131 pipeline spills, totaling about 18.8 million gallons; 66 spills from facilities, totaling about 4.7 million gallons). The percentages of oil spilled from different sources vary greatly from year to year; in some years, tanker accidents represent the largest single source of spilled oil, but only in a very few years is it the case that most of the oil spilled (in significant spills) during that year came from tankers. However, tanker accidents have been the cause of most of the very largest oil spills. The Cutter Information Corporation analysts also have found that of the 66 spills in which at least 10 million gallons (34,000 tonnes) of oil were lost, 48 were from tankers. Eight were from fixed facilities, especially storage tanks, five were from production oil wells, three were from pipelines, and two were from other kinds of cargo vessels."

Oil Spill Intelligence Report, published by Southern Cross University, Australia.

----------------------------

Largest Oil Spills Affecting U.S. Waters Since 1969 Thousands of oil spills occur in U.S. waters each year, but most are small in size, spilling less than one barrel of oil. Yet since the iconic 1969 oil well blowout in Santa Barbara, California, there have been at least 44 oil spills, each over 10,000 barrels (420,000 gallons), affecting U.S. waters. The largest of which was the 2010 Deepwater Horizon well blowout in the Gulf of Mexico.
https://response.restoration.noaa.g...gest-oil-spills-affecting-us-waters-1969.html

----------------------------

More than one-half of Americans change their own oil, but only about one-third of the used motor oil from do-it-yourself oil changes is collected and recycled properly. The average oil change uses almost five litres of oil; this amount of oil can contaminate approximately 3.8 million litres of freshwater!
Jan 23, 2017 Oil Spills FACT SHEET
Safe Drinking Water Foundation


Oil Spills FACT SHEET
Safe Drinking Water Foundation
Jan 23, 2017
https://www.safewater.org/fact-sheets-1/2017/1/23/oil-spills

.....
Oil types can differ in viscosity (it’s resistance to flow; molasses is highly viscous), volatility (how quickly it evaporates) and toxicity (how poisonous it is to humans and the environment). These three characteristics are very important when oil spills are being cleaned up, because the characteristics can influence the method of clean-up that will be used. The following chart summarizes the different types of oil and their characteristics.

Characteristics of Various Types of Oil; http://response.restoration.noaa.gov/oil-and-chemical-spills/oil-spills/oil-types.html

.....
Where Does Oil Pollution Come From? Oil pollution does come from oil spills from large tankers, but there are other sources of oil pollution that, collectively, discharge more oil into water than the major oil spills do. The following graph shows the amount of oil pollution can come from various sources.
Sources of Oil Pollution

.....
Transportation and transfers of oil increase the risk of oil spills; to transport oil from the source to the use, up to 15 transfers may be required between ocean tankers, pipelines, trains and tanker trucks. As the number of transfers increases, so does the risk of spilling the oil. The following chart shows the regions with the greatest number of oil spills greater than 34 tonnes since 1960. Typically, these areas have intense industrial operations and transportation of oil.

Regions in the World With the Most Oil Pollution; National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration Office of Response and Restoration

----------------------------

The Health Effects of Oil Contamination: A Compilation of Research
By Jon Gay, Olivia Shepherd, Mike Thyden, Matt Whitman
Worcester Polytechnic Institute is a private research university in Worcester, Massachusetts.
https://digital.wpi.edu/downloads/hq37vp13r


----------------------------


Crude Oil Contaminated Water Treatment: Development of Water Filter from Locally Sourced Materials
December 2016 Procedia Manufacturing 7:465-471 DOI:10.1016/j.promfg.2016.12.039
Authors:
Feyisayo Victoria Adams American University of Nigeria
Faustin Hategekimana Ankara University
O’Donnell P. Sylvester
https://www.researchgate.net/public...f_Water_Filter_from_Locally_Sourced_Materials

pollution from oil wells, pipelines, ships and refineries has become common in Nigeria. All these have resulted in the contanination of surface and groundwater
.....
The Niger Delta has suffered thousands of oil spills both on land and offshore. In 2010 between 9 and 13 million barrels of crude oil were reported to be spilled and yet 70% of it was not recovered during clean up.
----------------------------

 

[Newton]

Nevada is very pro-mining. I got family that drive those huge trucks, or shovels among other mining related jobs. I dont see why they couldnt do it there, assuming there's lithium of course.