• 👋 Welcome! If you were registered on Cybertruckownersclub.com as of October 1, 2024 or earlier, you can simply login here with the same username and password as on Cybertruckownersclub.

    If you wish, you can remove your account here.

Tesla’s reverse on battery cells signals shift for electric vehicles

TruckElectric

Well-known member
First Name
Bryan
Joined
Jun 16, 2020
Threads
609
Messages
2,004
Reaction score
1,493
Location
Texas
Vehicles
Dodge Ram diesel
Occupation
Retired
Country flag
Technological progress shouldn’t be supposed to enter reverse gear. However that’s what seems to be occurring on the earth of batteries for electrical vehicles after costs surged for uncooked supplies.

Tesla, which has led the way in which within the growth of electrical autos, is switching the kind of battery cells used for all its standard-range vehicles globally to 1 that analysts as soon as forecast would quickly grow to be out of date.

The Elon Musk-controlled firm will use iron-based batteries in these vehicles, also called lithium iron phosphate batteries.

This expertise is used broadly in easy, much less subtle gadgets equivalent to golf carts and residential back-up energy techniques. However in electrical vehicles, they’ve lengthy been considered a much less environment friendly choice. Globally, about 10 per cent of all electrical automobile battery cells produced at the moment are iron primarily based.

Their largest disadvantage is decrease vary. The fabric utilized in iron-based batteries have a decrease vitality density, providing much less driving distance on a single cost for a similar weight in contrast with broadly used nickel-based lithium-ion batteries. Because of this, virtually all automakers outdoors China have moved on to make use of the latter sort — which use nickel, cobalt and manganese as core supplies.

However the swap to iron-based batteries would have one crucial benefit: value. Batteries are the most costly a part of an electrical automobile. The older batteries are considerably cheaper — costing about 30 per cent per battery cell lower than their nickel-rich counterparts, primarily because of the lower cost of the uncooked supplies that go into them.

Given surging commodity costs and squeezed margins, battery makers have been elevating the worth of lithium-ion batteries. LG Vitality Resolution for instance, which provides Tesla, Porsche and BMW, is reported to have elevated battery costs by a tenth this 12 months as nickel costs quadrupled final 12 months.

There are additionally potential financial savings to be made on recall prices. Iron-based batteries are extra thermally steady, which means a decrease threat of fires. Remembers of 140,000 Chevrolet Bolt autos produced by Normal Motors resulting from battery fires value $2bn — and provider LG Vitality Resolution estimates its share of the expense might be $1.2bn. When unfold over every automobile bought, recall costs could start to erode benefits the batteries have over older expertise.

Regardless of such prices, world automakers have largely opted to stick with costly nickel-based lithium-ion batteries manufactured by South Korean and Japanese makers, which make up 88 per cent of the electrical automobile battery market outdoors China. Virtually all of the world’s high-end battery cells are made by three corporations: Japan’s Panasonic and South Korea’s LG Vitality Resolution and Samsung SDI.

Tesla’s swap may very well be a tipping level for change. It might persuade rival carmakers cautious of utilizing iron-based batteries that they’re a dependable and viable choice. Volkswagen additionally plans to use them in some fashions. Extra carmakers utilizing the battery means they may at some point grow to be the brand new world commonplace in entry-level electrical vehicles, particularly if charging infrastructure develops to some extent the place longer vary is much less of a priority.

The timing is opportune. Key patent restrictions that blocked Chinese language battery makers from exporting iron-based batteries abroad expire this 12 months. Licensing charges for producers outdoors China to make use of key expertise for iron-based batteries will even finish.

Nevertheless, a swap to iron-based batteries would imply an influence shift to China. Greater than 95 per cent of iron-based battery cells are made in China. Of the 4 Asian battery makers that make many of the world’s electrical automobile batteries, it is just the 2 Chinese language makers — BYD and CATL — that make all these battery cells after which just for home market till now. China additionally controls greater than 80 per cent of the world’s refining and mining of electrical automobile battery uncooked supplies.

For electrical automobile customers, a swap again to older expertise would possibly enable producers to keep away from value will increase. However long run, the potential for provide and value disruption is excessive. It’s tough and dear for automakers to alter battery makers at brief discover due to the extremely customised nature of battery designs.

The present world chip scarcity has highlighted the results of relying too closely on a handful of nations and firms for essential parts. For carmakers to keep away from the same destiny, they need to not underestimate the true value of constructing the swap at present.
[email protected]
— to www.ft.com

https://www.ft.com/content/accde2e1-08a2-4bc3-bbb1-1a1e72eb4508
 

Challeco

Well-known member
First Name
Christopher
Joined
Jan 20, 2021
Threads
1
Messages
226
Reaction score
92
Location
Oregon
Vehicles
23ModelY,71F250,14Fusion,66Galaxie
Occupation
Medical Technologist
Country flag
I am not sure where this article is going? Honestly, I struggled with the grammar. Yes, Lithium Iron Phosphate is an older technology. However, it hasn't been available due to patent concerns. Until, as the article states, this year when the patent expires. The chemistry, especially if applied with the dry manufacturing technology that Tesla is utilizing, is stable, and environmentally responsible. I am stunned that the article suggests that cobalt, a toxic metal, environmentally unfriendly mining practices, and questionable ethics of the sources of cobalt, is somehow a better choice than Iron?! Yes, with the upswing in demand for the raw materials, refined materials, and batteries in general, the costs are expected to rise. It is taught in college in the course Greed 101.
LiFePo is not the battery for supercars, but it would certainly work as an alternative to the 4 cylinder Honda civic or Toyota corolla. Honestly, I would love to buy an electric car that had the power, efficiency, range, and general comfort of a ford fusion.
 

Ogre

Well-known member
First Name
Dennis
Joined
Jul 3, 2021
Threads
135
Messages
7,953
Reaction score
3,498
Location
Ogregon
Vehicles
Model Y
Country flag
Author reverses normals to skip step of editoring. Inverts less sustainable way of putting words to bytes. Writing such mediocre prose long term impacts dire.



Bizarrely… I suspect my attempt at bad writing is more effective at making my point than theirs.
 

Ogre

Well-known member
First Name
Dennis
Joined
Jul 3, 2021
Threads
135
Messages
7,953
Reaction score
3,498
Location
Ogregon
Vehicles
Model Y
Country flag
I am not sure where this article is going? Honestly, I struggled with the grammar. Yes, Lithium Iron Phosphate is an older technology. However, it hasn't been available due to patent concerns. Until, as the article states, this year when the patent expires. The chemistry, especially if applied with the dry manufacturing technology that Tesla is utilizing, is stable, and environmentally responsible. I am stunned that the article suggests that cobalt, a toxic metal, environmentally unfriendly mining practices, and questionable ethics of the sources of cobalt, is somehow a better choice than Iron?! Yes, with the upswing in demand for the raw materials, refined materials, and batteries in general, the costs are expected to rise. It is taught in college in the course Greed 101.
LiFePo is not the battery for supercars, but it would certainly work as an alternative to the 4 cylinder Honda civic or Toyota corolla. Honestly, I would love to buy an electric car that had the power, efficiency, range, and general comfort of a ford fusion.
Spot on.

LFP is very limited due to low energy density. It is arguably more sustainable because iron is more readily sourced than nickel and cobalt (a mineral with a terrible history which Tesla is eliminating).

The fact that Tesla is able to reliably get 250 miles range out of LFP batteries is due to their obsession over efficiency. I suspect as Tesla starts to make their own LFP cells they will be able to increase the energy density a bit more yet.
 
OP
OP
TruckElectric

TruckElectric

Well-known member
First Name
Bryan
Joined
Jun 16, 2020
Threads
609
Messages
2,004
Reaction score
1,493
Location
Texas
Vehicles
Dodge Ram diesel
Occupation
Retired
Country flag
The fact that Tesla is able to reliably get 250 miles range out of LFP batteries is due to their obsession over efficiency. I suspect as Tesla starts to make their own LFP cells they will be able to increase the energy density a bit more yet.
My take is that Elon saw Nickel prices were already surging(and continue to do so) and possible limited supply due to demand(although transitory) and needed the Nickel-based batteries for the Semi and Cybertruck. A sort of juggling act with supply constraints if you will.
 

Crissa

Well-known member
First Name
Crissa
Joined
Jul 8, 2020
Threads
82
Messages
11,771
Reaction score
3,850
Location
Santa Cruz
Vehicles
2014 Zero S, 2013 Mazda 3
Country flag
LFP has always been a good battery.

Heck, NIMH batteries were perfect for hybrids... but patents also prevented automakers from using them. And they don't catch fire!

Just because something was skipped over doesn't mean it isn't a good option - it means at the time it wasn't. And that could be for any number of reasons. Some of them are dumb, like, 'licensing fee made it more expensive even though it was cheaper otherwise'.

-Crissa
 

Ogre

Well-known member
First Name
Dennis
Joined
Jul 3, 2021
Threads
135
Messages
7,953
Reaction score
3,498
Location
Ogregon
Vehicles
Model Y
Country flag
My take is that Elon saw Nickel prices were already surging(and continue to do so) and possible limited supply due to demand(although transitory) and needed the Nickel-based batteries for the Semi and Cybertruck. A sort of juggling act with supply constraints if you will.
Right now, LFP is 20-30% cheaper than Nickel based cells. It’s easy to see why it’s appealing.

The only people who are really against LFP are the people who can’t make cars efficient enough to make them useful. Seeing Tesla—who already has big pricing advantages—get access to a broader and less expensive source of cells has to be really piss off the legacy makers who can barely make cars with nickel based cells viable.
 

Jhodgesatmb

Well-known member
First Name
Jack
Joined
Dec 1, 2019
Threads
57
Messages
3,615
Reaction score
355
Location
San Francisco Bay area
Website
www.arbor-studios.com
Vehicles
Tesla Model Y LR, Tesla Model 3 LR
Occupation
Retired AI researcher
Country flag
Technological progress shouldn’t be supposed to enter reverse gear. However that’s what seems to be occurring on the earth of batteries for electrical vehicles after costs surged for uncooked supplies.

Tesla, which has led the way in which within the growth of electrical autos, is switching the kind of battery cells used for all its standard-range vehicles globally to 1 that analysts as soon as forecast would quickly grow to be out of date.

The Elon Musk-controlled firm will use iron-based batteries in these vehicles, also called lithium iron phosphate batteries.

This expertise is used broadly in easy, much less subtle gadgets equivalent to golf carts and residential back-up energy techniques. However in electrical vehicles, they’ve lengthy been considered a much less environment friendly choice. Globally, about 10 per cent of all electrical automobile battery cells produced at the moment are iron primarily based.

Their largest disadvantage is decrease vary. The fabric utilized in iron-based batteries have a decrease vitality density, providing much less driving distance on a single cost for a similar weight in contrast with broadly used nickel-based lithium-ion batteries. Because of this, virtually all automakers outdoors China have moved on to make use of the latter sort — which use nickel, cobalt and manganese as core supplies.

However the swap to iron-based batteries would have one crucial benefit: value. Batteries are the most costly a part of an electrical automobile. The older batteries are considerably cheaper — costing about 30 per cent per battery cell lower than their nickel-rich counterparts, primarily because of the lower cost of the uncooked supplies that go into them.

Given surging commodity costs and squeezed margins, battery makers have been elevating the worth of lithium-ion batteries. LG Vitality Resolution for instance, which provides Tesla, Porsche and BMW, is reported to have elevated battery costs by a tenth this 12 months as nickel costs quadrupled final 12 months.

There are additionally potential financial savings to be made on recall prices. Iron-based batteries are extra thermally steady, which means a decrease threat of fires. Remembers of 140,000 Chevrolet Bolt autos produced by Normal Motors resulting from battery fires value $2bn — and provider LG Vitality Resolution estimates its share of the expense might be $1.2bn. When unfold over every automobile bought, recall costs could start to erode benefits the batteries have over older expertise.

Regardless of such prices, world automakers have largely opted to stick with costly nickel-based lithium-ion batteries manufactured by South Korean and Japanese makers, which make up 88 per cent of the electrical automobile battery market outdoors China. Virtually all of the world’s high-end battery cells are made by three corporations: Japan’s Panasonic and South Korea’s LG Vitality Resolution and Samsung SDI.

Tesla’s swap may very well be a tipping level for change. It might persuade rival carmakers cautious of utilizing iron-based batteries that they’re a dependable and viable choice. Volkswagen additionally plans to use them in some fashions. Extra carmakers utilizing the battery means they may at some point grow to be the brand new world commonplace in entry-level electrical vehicles, particularly if charging infrastructure develops to some extent the place longer vary is much less of a priority.

The timing is opportune. Key patent restrictions that blocked Chinese language battery makers from exporting iron-based batteries abroad expire this 12 months. Licensing charges for producers outdoors China to make use of key expertise for iron-based batteries will even finish.

Nevertheless, a swap to iron-based batteries would imply an influence shift to China. Greater than 95 per cent of iron-based battery cells are made in China. Of the 4 Asian battery makers that make many of the world’s electrical automobile batteries, it is just the 2 Chinese language makers — BYD and CATL — that make all these battery cells after which just for home market till now. China additionally controls greater than 80 per cent of the world’s refining and mining of electrical automobile battery uncooked supplies.

For electrical automobile customers, a swap again to older expertise would possibly enable producers to keep away from value will increase. However long run, the potential for provide and value disruption is excessive. It’s tough and dear for automakers to alter battery makers at brief discover due to the extremely customised nature of battery designs.

The present world chip scarcity has highlighted the results of relying too closely on a handful of nations and firms for essential parts. For carmakers to keep away from the same destiny, they need to not underestimate the true value of constructing the swap at present.
[email protected]
— to www.ft.com

https://www.ft.com/content/accde2e1-08a2-4bc3-bbb1-1a1e72eb4508
If the English were better maybe I'd have read more of it than the first paragraphs. When I got to "fabric" I gave up. This is pretty old news one way or another.
 

firsttruck

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 25, 2020
Threads
124
Messages
1,888
Reaction score
633
Location
mx
Vehicles
none
Country flag
.....

Heck, NIMH batteries were perfect for hybrids. ...
NiMH batteries could have been used in BEVs too. Some of the last GM EV1s were made with NiMH batteries. Sandy Munro worked on EV1 project just before GM shut it down (after a change in GM management). Sandy said the NiMH batteries worked well in the EV1 and were much better than the lead-acid based EV1.

... but patents also prevented automakers from using them.
Maybe other automakers had that excuse but GM didn't.

GM owned the large format NiMH battery patent !!!!

GM had NiMH batteries in EV1, saw it worked and killed it anyway.
Then GM sold the NiMH battery patent to the oil company against the wishes of the scientist who was the original inventor.

Also the U.S. Federal government ( ie. taxpayers) partial funded the development. So big Auto & big Oil robbed U.S. taxpayers and human society as a whole so these big corporations could continue getting exorbitant profits at societies expense (wealth & health).

---------------

Patent encumbrance of large automotive NiMH batteries
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patent_encumbrance_of_large_automotive_NiMH_batteries

.....
According to Stanford Ovshinsky (co-inventor of patent), the auto industry falsely suggested that NiMH technology was not yet ready for widespread use in road cars.[13] Members of the USABC, including General Motors, Ford, and Chrysler, threatened to take legal action against Ovshinsky if he continued to promote NiMH's potential for use in BEVs, and if he continued to lend test batteries to Solectria, a start-up electric vehicle maker that was not part of the USABC. The Big Three car companies argued that his behavior violated their exclusive rights to the battery technology, because they had matched a federal government grant given to Ovonics to develop NiMH technology.[dubious – discuss] Critics argue that the Big Three were more interested in convincing CARB members that electric vehicles were not technologically and commercially viable.[12]

---------------

Chevron and EVs – GM, Chevron and CARB killed the sole NiMH EV once, will do so again
https://www.ev1.org/chevron.htm

---------------

Stanford Ovshinsky
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_R._Ovshinsky

---------------
 
Last edited:

Cyberman

Well-known member
First Name
Adam
Joined
Apr 7, 2020
Threads
29
Messages
1,761
Reaction score
223
Location
San Diego
Vehicles
F150,F550, Escape
Occupation
Cybercontractor
Country flag
Technological progress shouldn’t be supposed to enter reverse gear. However that’s what seems to be occurring on the earth of batteries for electrical vehicles after costs surged for uncooked supplies.

Tesla, which has led the way in which within the growth of electrical autos, is switching the kind of battery cells used for all its standard-range vehicles globally to 1 that analysts as soon as forecast would quickly grow to be out of date.

The Elon Musk-controlled firm will use iron-based batteries in these vehicles, also called lithium iron phosphate batteries.

This expertise is used broadly in easy, much less subtle gadgets equivalent to golf carts and residential back-up energy techniques. However in electrical vehicles, they’ve lengthy been considered a much less environment friendly choice. Globally, about 10 per cent of all electrical automobile battery cells produced at the moment are iron primarily based.

Their largest disadvantage is decrease vary. The fabric utilized in iron-based batteries have a decrease vitality density, providing much less driving distance on a single cost for a similar weight in contrast with broadly used nickel-based lithium-ion batteries. Because of this, virtually all automakers outdoors China have moved on to make use of the latter sort — which use nickel, cobalt and manganese as core supplies.

However the swap to iron-based batteries would have one crucial benefit: value. Batteries are the most costly a part of an electrical automobile. The older batteries are considerably cheaper — costing about 30 per cent per battery cell lower than their nickel-rich counterparts, primarily because of the lower cost of the uncooked supplies that go into them.

Given surging commodity costs and squeezed margins, battery makers have been elevating the worth of lithium-ion batteries. LG Vitality Resolution for instance, which provides Tesla, Porsche and BMW, is reported to have elevated battery costs by a tenth this 12 months as nickel costs quadrupled final 12 months.

There are additionally potential financial savings to be made on recall prices. Iron-based batteries are extra thermally steady, which means a decrease threat of fires. Remembers of 140,000 Chevrolet Bolt autos produced by Normal Motors resulting from battery fires value $2bn — and provider LG Vitality Resolution estimates its share of the expense might be $1.2bn. When unfold over every automobile bought, recall costs could start to erode benefits the batteries have over older expertise.

Regardless of such prices, world automakers have largely opted to stick with costly nickel-based lithium-ion batteries manufactured by South Korean and Japanese makers, which make up 88 per cent of the electrical automobile battery market outdoors China. Virtually all of the world’s high-end battery cells are made by three corporations: Japan’s Panasonic and South Korea’s LG Vitality Resolution and Samsung SDI.

Tesla’s swap may very well be a tipping level for change. It might persuade rival carmakers cautious of utilizing iron-based batteries that they’re a dependable and viable choice. Volkswagen additionally plans to use them in some fashions. Extra carmakers utilizing the battery means they may at some point grow to be the brand new world commonplace in entry-level electrical vehicles, particularly if charging infrastructure develops to some extent the place longer vary is much less of a priority.

The timing is opportune. Key patent restrictions that blocked Chinese language battery makers from exporting iron-based batteries abroad expire this 12 months. Licensing charges for producers outdoors China to make use of key expertise for iron-based batteries will even finish.

Nevertheless, a swap to iron-based batteries would imply an influence shift to China. Greater than 95 per cent of iron-based battery cells are made in China. Of the 4 Asian battery makers that make many of the world’s electrical automobile batteries, it is just the 2 Chinese language makers — BYD and CATL — that make all these battery cells after which just for home market till now. China additionally controls greater than 80 per cent of the world’s refining and mining of electrical automobile battery uncooked supplies.

For electrical automobile customers, a swap again to older expertise would possibly enable producers to keep away from value will increase. However long run, the potential for provide and value disruption is excessive. It’s tough and dear for automakers to alter battery makers at brief discover due to the extremely customised nature of battery designs.

The present world chip scarcity has highlighted the results of relying too closely on a handful of nations and firms for essential parts. For carmakers to keep away from the same destiny, they need to not underestimate the true value of constructing the swap at present.
[email protected]
— to www.ft.com

https://www.ft.com/content/accde2e1-08a2-4bc3-bbb1-1a1e72eb4508
Wow. What a pile of gobbledygook.
 

Klaxon

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 28, 2020
Threads
4
Messages
313
Reaction score
71
Location
Canada
Vehicles
CT
Country flag
Horror story again?
Fear sells. But it is not so bad yet.
The promised regress is not to the wood burning choo-choo level.
 

Chip Geek

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 8, 2021
Threads
0
Messages
54
Reaction score
5
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Vehicles
2024 MS-LR; [CT3]
Country flag
Looks to me like it was google translated (or other automatic way) so you could cut it some slack. I'm sure for my eyes it reads easier than the original (Korean?).
 

shaneaus

Well-known member
First Name
Martin
Joined
Jun 24, 2020
Threads
0
Messages
57
Reaction score
3
Location
Austin, TX, United States
Vehicles
Chevy 1500 Z71
Country flag
This is old news and the article is inaccurate. Sandy Munro has covered the usage of these batteries several times in his YT channel. This is just more FUD.
 

Ogre

Well-known member
First Name
Dennis
Joined
Jul 3, 2021
Threads
135
Messages
7,953
Reaction score
3,498
Location
Ogregon
Vehicles
Model Y
Country flag
Looks to me like it was google translated (or other automatic way) so you could cut it some slack. I'm sure for my eyes it reads easier than the original (Korean?).
Not a big fan of copy/ paste articles onto this site and shouldn’t have replied. This one is behind a paywall and cross-posted here so we didn’t have that context. Though I suppose the mistakes made here kind-of feel like machine translation errors.

Regardless. The underlying topic is junk too.
 
 
Top