GM Says Its Fuel Cell Generators Could Enable EV Fast-Charging

[Ogre]

It really is surprising how low lithium ion batteries energy density is compared to other fuel sources like gas or hydrogen.

Totally agree.

Solar + battery is less power but can deliver power for months or even years.

Hydrogen is more power, but once it’s exhausted it is spent.

We just need to get those safe portable nuclear reactors so we can get both.

 

[Crissa]

We just need to get those safe portable nuclear reactors so we can get both.

But those are so far out in tech that they might as well not be plausible. We need to be making things now. Whether you're worried about global warming or energy independence, sooner is better than later.

And we're capped out in battery growth.

-Crissa

 

[Eye of Elon]

Hydrogen made from natural gas delivered by diesel trucks to remote locations, so people can fast charge on their National Park vacations?

 

[tidmutt]

But those are so far out in tech that they might as well not be plausible. We need to be making things now. Whether you're worried about global warming or energy independence, sooner is better than later.

And we're capped out in battery growth.

-Crissa

Cheap, commoditized solar panels/roof tiles on every structure in the appropriate latitudes with a CT attached for battery backup. That's a solution that appeals to me in my castle.

 

[FutureBoy]

I don't know exactly what it is, but it's like a disease in my head that I have to be constantly making systems more robust and self-sustaining. Constantly searching for points of weakness and failure.

It used to be manageable, but lately I see everything through the lens of " does this work if Yellowstone blows up." I generate a lot of my own power, but it's done via solar. I garden, hunt, fish, and otherwise provide about ~70% of my families food needs, including some mostly self-sustaining composting cycles and I bloom bag a bunch of stuff so I maintain my own seed bank. None of that matters if the big stack blows, so now the neurotic part of my brain has been looking for non-FF solutions to provide power in the event that we have a couple years of ash floating around.

This makes monkey brain happy.

Nutrient wise, you might want to start learning about fungi (mushrooms especially). They grow in the dark so no solar power needed.

 

[John K]

You better capture a solar hydrolyzing station, too.

It's not easy to make hydrogen in bulk, but far easier than making gasoline!

I can produce methane pretty easily. Does that help?

 

[Crissa]

Hydrogen made from natural gas delivered by diesel trucks to remote locations, so people can fast charge on their National Park vacations?

Ugh, that's just wasteful.

Nutrient wise, you might want to start learning about fungi (mushrooms especially). They grow in the dark so no solar power needed.

That's what was our first crop in the garden of our current home ^-^

-Crissa

 

[Ogre]

But those are so far out in tech that they might as well not be plausible. We need to be making things now. Whether you're worried about global warming or energy independence, sooner is better than later.

And we're capped out in battery growth.

-Crissa

I forgot to add the /s to indicate it was meant as sarcasm.

 

[John K]

I forgot to add the /s to indicate it was meant as sarcasm.

@Crissa Don’t let @Ogre walk back his statement.

 

[FutureBoy]

Here is a different take on the GM Hydrotec release.
==========================================


GM Wants to Be Like Tesla. We’re Not Talking About Cars.
Al Root
Jan. 20, 2022 10:49 am ET

*** ONE-TIME USE *** GM and Renewable Innovations are collaborating on an EMPOWER rapid charger that can help retail fuel stations add more affordable DC fast-charging capabilities without significant investment in nonrecoverable infrastructure upgrades.
Courtesy GM


General Motors has plans to expand its Hydrotec branded fuel cell technology beyond cars and trucks. GM wants to do stationary power applications, too. It’s a good idea—and a very Tesla -like strategy.

On Wednesday, GM (ticker: GM) announced plans to offer hydrogen fuel cell-based power generators for applications ranging from backup power or data centers, to powering military bases or electric-vehicle recharging stations.

“These fuel cell generators could ultimately replace gas- and diesel-burning generators with fewer emissions at worksites, buildings, movie sets, data centers, outdoor concerts and festivals,” reads GM’s news release. “They could also back up or temporarily replace grid-sourced electricity for residential and small commercial enterprises at times of power disruption.”

The stock, however, didn’t get a boost after the announcement Wednesday afternoon. GM stock closed 2% lower amid a broader market slump. The S&P 500 and Dow Jones Industrial Average both fell 1% on Wednesday. In recent Thursday trading, GM shares edged up 0.8%.

Hydrogen fuel cells generate electricity using hydrogen gas, and don’t release any greenhouse gases into the atmosphere when operating. What’s more, if the hydrogen gas is created by passing renewably generated electricity through water, then no greenhouse gases are generated at any point in that hydrogen value chain.

(Hydrogen gas can also be made from natural gas. That, however, creates some greenhouse gas emissions, which are blamed for climate change.)

“Our vision of an all-electric future is broader than just passenger vehicles or even transportation,” said Charlie Freese, GM executive director of the global Hydrotec business, in GM’s news release.

It’s a bold vision and very close to the vision of another auto maker: Tesla (TSLA).

Tesla also uses its battery technology as backup power for residential and commercial customers. Tesla also sells huge battery packs to utilities to help make renewable power generating resources available when the wind isn’t blowing and the sun isn’t shining. The batteries can store wind and solar power, essentially, improving the up time of those renewable electricity generating assets.

Tesla also makes solar panels. So the company also has the ability to generate electricity in addition to storing it. For GM to mirror that part of Tesla’s strategy, it might have to get involved in generating hydrogen gas. GM hasn’t announced anything related to hydrogen production.

You can’t blame GM for taking on a Tesla-like strategy. After all, Tesla stock has rocketed, making Elon Musk’s company worth about $1 trillion—more than 10 times GM’s value.

 

[WildhavenMI]

Nutrient wise, you might want to start learning about fungi (mushrooms especially). They grow in the dark so no solar power needed.

I'm so deep into mycelium I might as be Paul Stamets at this point. I watched the documentary "fantastic fungi" on Netflix and it literally changed my world view.

 

[Deleted member 12457]

I think I'd rather have one of those mini nuclear reactors generating electricity to power my CT than going through all the current processes of splitting water and natural gas into hydrogen then trying to store it safely. The idea of an EV is to reduce the amount of fossil fuels used in the generation of not just the electricity but also the materials used to build the vehicle. There's no economical way to create enough hydrogen to power vehicles as well as hydrogen power stations. GM is simply trying to stay relevant, including buying into Chinese EV production, but their US vehicles will never be relevant.

 

[rr6013]

nice! this is much better use case for hydrogen fuel cells.

it could be cool to see these popping up at gas stations where ev chargers r sparse.

but i also wonder how earth friendly these are.

BEV needs a high capacitor discharge system that can dissipate its energy across all cells in a battery pack evenly and balanced. It would be interesting to see an EE engineer crossover curves at which voltage BEV battery DC chargers need to be to reach that point where capacitors become viable.

Capacitors as little red gas cans .vs. locomotive-size charging banks. Let GM chase grid scale hydrogen gas cans!

 

[CyberGus]

I sort of agree. As far as space is concerned hydrogen is way way more energy dense than lithium ion batteries. Yes there are more complications to the storage and production, but for the purpose that it seems they are looking for this to be used hydrogen is likely a better option. I read lithium ion is about 0.3 MJ/kg and hydrogen is 120 MJ/kg. We are talking about orders of magnitude more energy dense. Solar and batteries would definitely be more limited to how many vehicles and how fast. Hydrogen would be the better option for numerous quick draws of energy. Solar and batteries would be lower maintenance and refill but would be more limited on the qty of charges, size of the solar array and battery and be much more limited on the number of vehicles and consecutive charges as the batteries would need to replenish which would depend on the size of the solar array and you need a lot of solar to make a dent in electric vehicle charging. Lets say an average typical EV is a 80kWh, which is half of what a level 3 charger can produce per hour. So you would need a 80kWh solar array at least to charge 1 vehicle an hour. Thats a 200 solar panel array. Thats almost 5,000 sf of space. Hydrogen can hold the same amount of energy that 80 kWh solar array would produce per hour in just more than a 2 liter bottle in volume.

It really is surprising how low lithium ion batteries energy density is compared to other fuel sources like gas or hydrogen.

Back up the truck there, cowboy.

You can't just toss a kilo of hydrogren in the back seat. The "energy density" of lithium includes the packaging, but hydrogen needs a bulky storage tank to contain it. Also, you'll need a fuel cell to create power from hydrogen, so there is more weight.

Lastly, 90%+ of the energy in the battery will go to the wheels, whereas hydrogen will lose much of it's energy in waste heat.

 

[CyberGus]

We just need to get those safe portable nuclear reactors so we can get both.