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Car groups throw spanner in works of EU’s hydrogen drive

FutureBoy

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Car groups throw spanner in works of EU’s hydrogen drive
Industry pours cold water on idea hydrogen can vie with battery power to replace ICEs.
JOE MILLER AND DAVID KEOHANE, FINANCIAL TIMES - Wednesday at undefined

Tesla Model 2 Car groups throw spanner in works of EU’s hydrogen drive bmw-hydrogen

The lettering "BMW i - Hydrogen Next" can be seen on the front of a BMW X5 equipped with a hydrogen drive. The car is equipped with two 700 bar tanks for a total of 6 kg of hydrogen.


Europe’s two biggest industrial and economic powers are laying billions on the table in an attempt to take on China in developing a “green” hydrogen sector to replace fossil fuels—but the continent’s top motor groups are wary of going along for the ride.

“You won’t see any hydrogen usage in cars,” said Volkswagen chief executive Herbert Diess.

The idea of a big market for vehicles powered by hydrogen fuel cells is “very optimistic,” according to Diess, who has overseen a €35 billion push into electric cars. “Not even in 10 years,” he told the Financial Times, “because the physics behind it are so unreasonable.”

France and Germany have driven the region’s effort to build a world-leading industry based on the most abundant element in the universe, a pillar of the EU’s plan to achieve carbon neutrality by 2050. Together they have pledged a combined €16 billion to hydrogen power generation technologies, the largest direct public investment in the field by EU countries.

Their carmakers, however, remain unconvinced. VW, the world’s second-biggest by sales, has all but abandoned its hydrogen plans. German rival Mercedes, which invested in hydrogen for decades to no avail, quietly shelved its last passenger car fuel cell project last year, while BMW maintains only a toehold in the technology.

France’s PSA, which has bet heavily on electric vehicle technology, also remains deeply skeptical. Carlos Tavares, the outspoken CEO of the recently formed Stellantis group resulting from the merger of Fiat Chrysler with PSA, even suggested to the FT that “most of the people who have pushed for the hydrogen-powered cars are the ones who are late in the electric vehicles.”

The European carmakers’ stance stands in stark contrast to those of their biggest Asian rivals. Japan’s Toyota, the world leader by sales and whose Mirai launched in 2014 was the first mass-produced hydrogen car, and South Korea’s Hyundai continue to invest heavily, bolstered by state incentives and demand from specific customers such as corporate fleets.

Tesla Model 2 Car groups throw spanner in works of EU’s hydrogen drive MIRAI

The drivetrain of the Mirai.


Strict EU emissions regulations have instead pushed its carmakers to pour tens of billions of euros into battery technology that provides more certainty, establishing global supply chains and building dedicated electric vehicle platforms to bring down costs.

As a rule of thumb, industry executives say that without subsidies carmakers need to sell 100,000 units a year before cost curves start falling. Annual deliveries of hydrogen vehicles in Europe languish in the hundreds.

According to Bernd Heid, a McKinsey analyst, a “ramp-up of both commercial vehicles and passenger cars” powered by hydrogen would be required for the “rapid increase in refilling infrastructure” required to scale up the industry.

However, Renault head of alternative fuels Philippe Prevel said that although hydrogen-powered passenger cars would not be a viable option until 2030 at the earliest, vehicles on fixed routes or closed networks could start to bring costs down before then.

Tesla Model 2 Car groups throw spanner in works of EU’s hydrogen drive Hydrogen

How hydrogen fuel cells work.


Benoît Potier, chief executive of France’s Air Liquide, one of the biggest and earliest backers of hydrogen, shares Prevel’s view. “Taxis, buses, trains, boats, light commercial vehicles... I mean, everything that is flying back to a fixed point or going back to a fixed point is a good candidate,” he said.

Europe’s largest trainmakers have already experimented with the technology. The world’s first hydrogen train trundled through rural Germany in 2018 after being unveiled by France’s Alstom, which argues that for routes of more than 120 km hydrogen can be a better solution than batteries. The first hydrogen trains in France will start to roll from 2023.

“Having started in Germany, hydrogen trains are now spreading across Europe and the reason is simple: it's that all countries are engaged in replacing their fleet of diesel trains, and 50 percent of the rail network in Europe is not electrified,” said Alstom chief executive Henri Poupart-Lafarge. He added that 4,500 to 5,000 regional diesel trains were up for renewal across Europe.

Siemens in November announced a partnership with Deutsche Bahn to develop a regional hydrogen train that can be refueled in 15 minutes. The project offers the potential to decarbonize Germany’s 1,300 diesel-powered trains, which are forced to use the fossil fuel on the 40 percent of the DB network that is not electrified.

“We need to bring our fossil fuel consumption down to zero,” said DB board member Sabina Jeschke, adding that by 2050 the company “won’t have a single diesel-powered train operating in our fleet.”

Trucks are a bigger problem to solve. While only accounting for 2 percent of vehicles on the road in the EU, they are responsible for 22 percent of road transport carbon emissions, according to pressure group Transport and Environment. And powering them with batteries is not as straightforward an option as it is with cars.

Steve Angel, chief executive of hydrogen pioneer Linde, said large commercial vehicles “can't afford to sacrifice the payload to accommodate the weight of batteries.”

Daimler has established a joint venture with arch-rival Volvo to develop hydrogen-powered trucks.

Tavares is also preparing to launch a fleet of trucks powered by hydrogen fuel cells. Those cells are being built by Symbio, a French joint venture with Michelin and Faurecia, which already equips Renault’s hydrogen vans.

While Renault has only sold 200-300 of the first-generation hydrogen Kangoo van since its launch in 2014, it remains cautiously optimistic about the “emerging technology.” It plans to launch two new hydrogen-powered light commercial vehicles in coming months with its new partner, Plug Power.

But others are dismissive—including VW’s Diess, whose group includes the MAN and Scania truck brands and who once worked on hydrogen projects as an engineer at BMW. He noted that energy is lost converting hydrogen into liquid form—and that the fuel cell itself “has an efficiency of 70 percent” because it requires a “buffer” battery to transmit its energy to the vehicle.

“You can’t ramp the fuel cell up and down like a combustion engine,” he said. “So you need another 10kW battery, you need an electric engine, and you need to run the fuel cell.”

The technology, Diess argues, does not even make sense for commercial vehicles. “A truck is really prone to cost per kilometer, load per kilometer and hydrogen is so expensive that you would triple the cost per kilometer against an [electric] truck.” Battery-powered trucks could have a range of 200 km to 300 km, he added.

Renault’s Prevel counters that beyond that 300 km mark, the sheer weight of batteries means hydrogen has a role to play. He would like to see Renault take 30 percent of the hydrogen light commercial vehicle market, although he acknowledges it is too early to say how big that market will be.

Hydrogen’s credentials as a clean energy source remain an issue, as does the cost of production compared with fossil fuels until the price of renewable energy required to produce it comes down.

Executives who have lived through several hydrogen “hype cycles” remain wary.

“We cannot expect everything to be green and sustainable and our individual behaviors and lives remain the same,” said Christian Bruch, the boss of Germany’s Siemens Energy, which has signed a hydrogen production deal with France’s Air Liquide. “The worst thing that can happen is that we talk about a silver bullet [green hydrogen] that never comes, and it's always five years away.”
 
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FutureBoy

FutureBoy

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“We cannot expect everything to be green and sustainable and our individual behaviors and lives remain the same,” said Christian Bruch, the boss of Germany’s Siemens Energy, which has signed a hydrogen production deal with France’s Air Liquide. “The worst thing that can happen is that we talk about a silver bullet [green hydrogen] that never comes, and it's always five years away.”
Note the foreshadowing here. I fear their worst-case scenario is exactly what will actually happen.
 

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"Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe"

When will this most stupid argument for hydrogen storage die??

Sure "Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe" this might be true for the whole universe but we are on EARTH and talking about green non-polluting energy storage.

On Earth there is a lot of hydrogen but it is all in compounds like FOSSIL fuels or biological things (living or recently dead - plants, animals, algae, etc).

So to be clean we need elemental hydrogen which on Earth is not just sitting around underground that we can just scoop out or in that atmosphere that can be just sucked in (like we can do oxygen or nitrogen). Hydrogen binds pretty tightly to other elements (especially carbon) such that it takes a lot of energy to break out elemental hydrogen and then we still generate waste products of all the other stuff the hydrogen was bond with.
 

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Clean elemental hydrogen is easily produced with electrolysis.

It's not magic, it just needs someone to actually build the infrastructure, rather than just talk about it.

-Crissa
 

HaulingAss

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Note the foreshadowing here. I fear their worst-case scenario is exactly what will actually happen.
How true. Except it's even worse than their "5 years out" scenario RIGHT NOW! There is no viable path in the next 10 years to make it sensible compared to simply ramping BEV more. So the 'worst possible' scenario they mention is already wildly optimistic right from the start.
 
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HaulingAss

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"Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe"

When will this most stupid argument for hydrogen storage die??

Sure "Hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe" this might be true for the whole universe but we are on EARTH and talking about green non-polluting energy storage.
Exactly! There needs to be a viable path identified even if the path is long. But this hasn't been done in any convincingly detailed manner. Probably because there is no known way to do it. In other words, H2 power is pretty unrealistic from an economic perspective without a MAJOR breakthrough. A breakthrough that no one can even envision. Any funding toward H2 power should be limited to theoretical research, not the building of hydrogen infrastructure.

Saying that "hydrogen is the most abundant element in the universe must mean it's an ideal power source" would be the same as claiming that pumped hydro is the ideal way to store energy simply because there is so much H2O in the environments we live. The method still needs to be detailed and compared to competing methods to determine if it even has a chance of ever being viable.
 

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Clean elemental hydrogen is easily produced with electrolysis.

It's not magic, it just needs someone to actually build the infrastructure, rather than just talk about it.

-Crissa
Electrolysis takes large amounts of electricity relative to the amount of useable H2 energy returned. If you already have the electricity, it makes more sense to simply charge the batteries directly rather than converting the electricity to H2, fueling up with H2 and then converting it back to electricity to drive the motors. That might reduce the size of the battery pack needed but the downside is that for the entire life of the vehicle, it will be much more expensive to operate and require a larger source of electricity. The energy equations don't pencil out. Which means the cost equations don't pencil out.

Since no known breakthrough can reverse this equation, it makes no sense to build infrastructure that could never have a competitive advantage over BEV. Batteries have enough range and charge fast enough that the old arguments in favor of H2 fall flat on their face. I'm not opposed to public funding of H2 research but it would be ridiculously foolish to encourage the building of H2 infrastructure using known technologies.
 

Crissa

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The energy equations don't pencil out.
This is said, but then never penciled.

See, you need to be able to account for battery supply for an alternative. And much of the world neither has the political or economic power to get enough material to make enough batteries.

It doesn't matter that it needs more energy to do its thing - renewable energy hits negative numbers and has always had times when it did. (That's why aluminum foundries were built along the Columbia River. When they put in the dams, they were making so much extra power...

-Crissa
 

firsttruck

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Clean elemental hydrogen is easily produced with electrolysis.
Sure at small scale it is easy.

As you know who says

* prototypes are easy
Making a few bubbles of hydrogen in a test tube is easy.

* production is hard
The capital investment & the amount of energy for the hydrogen stations needed to power even tens of thousands of hydrogen cars is hard.


It's not magic, it just needs someone to actually build the infrastructure, rather than just talk about it.
The huge legacy car makers (Toyota, Honda, GM, etc) have been hyping hydrogen as a solution for over 20 years and there still is NO cross-country network of hydrogen stations. There is not even a city size network of stations anywhere in U.S.

There are more people in U.S. charging their BEV cars at home with rooftop solar than there are (clean or dirty) hydrogen cars or total hydrogen stations in U.S. (or total stations in California).


Compared to hydrogen, could this be magic??? Tesla magic

Back 7 years ago in 2014, the tiny Tesla company in less than 1.5 years completed the first U.S. cross-country EV high speed charging network route. At that time (end 1st qtr 2014). Tesla only had 33,997 cars total sold and on the roads. The Roadster could not Supercharge so only 31,549 Model S cars were eligible to use the network. The first location of the route started in Oct 2012.

-----------------
You Can Now Drive From Los Angeles To New York On Tesla's Supercharger Network
Alex Davies
Jan 27, 2014
https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-completes-cross-country-superchargers-2014-1

Tesla Model S drivers can now make it from Los Angeles to New York recharging the electric car only at the company's supercharger stations, CEO Elon Musk said

There are currently 71 stations in North America and 14 in Europe. Tesla says that covers about 80% of the U.S. population.
-----------------

As of Feb 2021, Tesla has over 970 Supercharger locations in the U.S.


7 years after Tesla completed it's first cross-county Supercharger route, legacy car makers or their suppliers have not even started a single cross-county route. Today day there are not even hydrogen stations to serve even 1% of population.
 

firsttruck

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And much of the world neither has the political or economic power to get enough material to make enough batteries.
What??? Maybe 20 years ago that statement might seem true.
But today it is happening NOW in U.S., Europe & Asia.


And magically somehow there will be more political or economic power to do a much more difficult problem of network of hydrogen stations??
 

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What??? Maybe 20 years ago that statement might seem true.
But today it is happening NOW in U.S., Europe & Asia.
What? Read what I wrote again.

Not every country has the resources to make batteries or procure them. Lithium batteries are the new oil.

There are many nations which will be left behind in this shift. And they'll seek other kinds of technology.

-Crissa
 

firsttruck

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Not every country has the resources to make batteries or procure them. Lithium batteries are the new oil.
Lithium batteries are not like oil.

Lithium batteries are a electricity storage device. Oil/gas is mostly used as a fuel.

Some oil is used for plastics or other materials that are used for months or years but most oil/gas is just burned. Oil/gas used in transportation or heating where it is burned and you continually have to use more.

Batteries in transportation usage usually last 8 to 15 years with only upfront cost and none or little yearly costs. After the life is over the battery can be recycled. It is possible in the future to reach a state that most batteries are made from material from old batteries.
Under some conditions LiFePO4 can last longer than 15 years.
Nickel-Iron Edison batteries can last 30-50 years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nickel–iron_battery

If a country can not make batteries they will buy them. Most of the 216 countries in the world do not have any crude oil at all so they have been buying it for what 80-100 years. Really only 40 countries have enough crude oil to make extraction economically viable.

It takes nine litres of water and 55 kWh of electricity to make 1 kg of hydrogen (at an assumed rate of efficiency of > 60 percent). There are a lot of countries where there is plenty of sunlight for solar but the availability of water would be big problem.

Even if they have to buy the batteries that will be better for most countries than hydrogen.

The continual loss of water and the efficiency loss of energy with hydrogen makes hydrogen more like oil than a lithium battery is.
 
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Luke42

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Clean elemental hydrogen is easily produced with electrolysis.

It's not magic, it just needs someone to actually build the infrastructure, rather than just talk about it.

-Crissa
In order to produce hydrogen via electrolysis, you need more electrical energy than you will get back by oxidizing the hydrogen (by burning or in a fuel cell).

As a result, it makes sense to analyze electrolyzed hydrogen as if it were a battery chemistry:
electricity -> chemical (H2) -> electricity

Hydrogen has the added benefit of making it easier to move the fully charged "electrolyte" around but, otherwise, it's not a great battery chemistry.

I love the idea of hydrogen, and like the idea of using it in some aviation applications. However my engineer daydreams all end up with lithium batteries once I start putting together the BOM with a calculator and spreadsheets (and virtual dollars attached).
 
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rr6013

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Sure at small scale it is easy.

As you know who says

* prototypes are easy
Making a few bubbles of hydrogen in a test tube is easy.

* production is hard
The capital investment & the amount of energy for the hydrogen stations needed to power even tens of thousands of hydrogen cars is hard.




The huge legacy car makers (Toyota, Honda, GM, etc) have been hyping hydrogen as a solution for over 20 years and there still is NO cross-country network of hydrogen stations. There is not even a city size network of stations anywhere in U.S.

There are more people in U.S. charging their BEV cars at home with rooftop solar than there are (clean or dirty) hydrogen cars or total hydrogen stations in U.S. (or total stations in California).


Compared to hydrogen, could this be magic??? Tesla magic

Back 7 years ago in 2014, the tiny Tesla company in less than 1.5 years completed the first U.S. cross-country EV high speed charging network route. At that time (end 1st qtr 2014). Tesla only had 33,997 cars total sold and on the roads. The Roadster could not Supercharge so only 31,549 Model S cars were eligible to use the network. The first location of the route started in Oct 2012.

-----------------
You Can Now Drive From Los Angeles To New York On Tesla's Supercharger Network
Alex Davies
Jan 27, 2014
https://www.businessinsider.com/tesla-completes-cross-country-superchargers-2014-1

Tesla Model S drivers can now make it from Los Angeles to New York recharging the electric car only at the company's supercharger stations, CEO Elon Musk said

There are currently 71 stations in North America and 14 in Europe. Tesla says that covers about 80% of the U.S. population.
-----------------

As of Feb 2021, Tesla has over 970 Supercharger locations in the U.S.


7 years after Tesla completed it's first cross-county Supercharger route, legacy car makers or their suppliers have not even started a single cross-county route. Today day there are not even hydrogen stations to serve even 1% of population.
Living in Marin site of the only 1 public Hydrogen station in No. Calif.,Toyota’s Mirai didn’t have range to work as a vehicle. I think the one Mirai on its Berkeley showroom floor is still sitting there.
 
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FutureBoy

FutureBoy

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Living in Marin site of the only 1 public Hydrogen station in No. Calif.,Toyota’s Mirai didn’t have range to work as a vehicle. I think the one Mirai on its Berkeley showroom floor is still sitting there.
Perhaps it’s out of hydrogen after the initial test drive. Can’t get back to Marin to fill up.
 
 
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